Trackside flags and lights

[raymondu999]

Taken from another forum

Ok, before I start, I’m a Flag Marshal here in NZ.

The way that the Floppy Marker system works, is that say you have a sector on a straight. Flag Point 1, and Flag Point 2. Now, approximately half way between these points will be a Floppy Marker (It changes depending on the location of the flag points and Line of Sight etc.) If there is an incident between FP1 and FP2 that demands a Yellow Flag from FP1 and it is BEFORE the Floppy Marker, then the cars may overtake from the Floppy Marker onwards provided there is a Green Flag at FP2. If the Incident for the Yellow Flag is AFTER the Floppy Marker, then the cars may not overtake until the pass FP2.

Given that not only Vettel passes Toro Rosso AFTER the Floppy Marker between FP4 and FP5, I would call that pass 100% legal. You could also call into question the validity of the Yellow Flag at FP4, but that’s down to the lights operator down at FP4 and they may have been told to put the Yellow light on by Race Control or someone else.

I hope that clears it up.

[turbof1]

It does raise a point: the rules, written and inwritten, aren't as clear as they should be, atleast towards the fans. How many of you for instance heard of the yellow-red striped flag? Who knows the difference between a full yellow light and a blinking one?

If even commentators get confused by it, then perhaps the rules should be simplified and above all, all of them written.

[raymondu999]

Yellow striped flags have been around for a long time. But the difference between a blinking and flashing light I did not know.

[turbof1]

Exactly. In this same topic there was mention of floppy markers. I mean we have always heard of that you can't overtake in a yellow sector. Now suddenly they can if complied by the, again unwritten, rules of a... floppy marker?

How does that even look like? Is someone out there waving with an oversized floppy disk? "Please insert floppy to overtake"

[Scootin159]

It does raise a point: the rules, written and inwritten, aren't as clear as they should be, atleast towards the fans. How many of you for instance heard of the yellow-red striped flag? Who knows the difference between a full yellow light and a blinking one?

If even commentators get confused by it, then perhaps the rules should be simplified and above all, all of them written.

Standard FIA flagging rules:

Red / Yellow Striped = oil/water*/debris on track (* = significantly more water here than elsewhere)
Standing Yellow (or solid yellow light) = danger ahead, no passing, track itself is clear
Waving Yellow (or flashing yellow light) = danger ahead, no passing, something *big* (like a car) is on the track
Green Flag = passing may resume

If you have a waving yellow (which would be immediately before the danger), you should have a standing yellow at the two flagging stations before the waving yellow and a waving green immediately after the waving yellow.

I don't know about FIA rules regarding lights, but I know that other series that borrow/clone FIA rules that I've flagged for (IRL, SCCA, Grand AM) say that the flags held in the marshals hands are all that count regarding "no passing" zones - the lights are purely for driver assistance and have no merit regarding rulings.

[siskue2005]

It does raise a point: the rules, written and inwritten, aren't as clear as they should be, atleast towards the fans. How many of you for instance heard of the yellow-red striped flag? Who knows the difference between a full yellow light and a blinking one?

If even commentators get confused by it, then perhaps the rules should be simplified and above all, all of them written.

yellow with orange stripped flag is for slippery surface

yellow flashing is same as single waved yellow flag warns drivers to slow down
yellow blinking is same as two waved yellow flags , which means that drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop if necessary

racing some online races and playing some sim has its benefits
i remember reading GP racing and f1 world grand prix games' book which had all flags and all setup effects in it back in 1999

[turbof1]

Well atleast you know that you are on a technical forum when people know things like this like it was breathing :p. Thanks guys!

[WhiteBlue]

Standard FIA flagging rules:

Red / Yellow Striped = oil/water*/debris on track (* = significantly more water here than elsewhere)
Standing Yellow (or solid yellow light) = danger ahead, no passing, track itself is clear
Waving Yellow (or flashing yellow light) = danger ahead, no passing, something *big* (like a car) is on the track
Green Flag = passing may resume

Is that a document you are quoting? If yes it is probably not specific for F1. How do you explain the difference between waved flags and stationary flags?

[siskue2005]

Standard FIA flagging rules:

Red / Yellow Striped = oil/water*/debris on track (* = significantly more water here than elsewhere)
Standing Yellow (or solid yellow light) = danger ahead, no passing, track itself is clear
Waving Yellow (or flashing yellow light) = danger ahead, no passing, something *big* (like a car) is on the track
Green Flag = passing may resume

Is that a document you are quoting? If yes it is probably not specific for F1. How do you explain the difference between waved flags and stationary flags?

Yellow flag
Indicates danger, such as a stranded car, ahead. A single waved yellow flag warns drivers to slow down, while two waved yellow flags at the same post means that drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop if necessary. Overtaking is prohibited. http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/under ... /5282.html

[Intego]

Standard FIA flagging rules:

Red / Yellow Striped = oil/water*/debris on track (* = significantly more water here than elsewhere)
Standing Yellow (or solid yellow light) = danger ahead, no passing, track itself is clear
Waving Yellow (or flashing yellow light) = danger ahead, no passing, something *big* (like a car) is on the track
Green Flag = passing may resume

Is that a document you are quoting? If yes it is probably not specific for F1. How do you explain the difference between waved flags and stationary flags?

Appendix H of the FIA sporting regulations:

2.4.3.4 Other light signals
Light panels may be used to form visual representations of the yellow flag with red stripes, safety car board or other signals, which must be stipulated in the Supplementary Regulations of the event.

2.4.4.2 Clerk of the Course light signals
Lights or light panels may be used to form visual representations of the above-mentioned signals [i.e. all flags]; if so, this must be stipulated in the Supplementary Regulations of the event.

2.4.5 Signals used at marshal posts
2.4.5.1 Marshal flag signals
b) Yellow flag
This is a signal of danger and should be shown to drivers in two ways with the following meanings:
- Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track.
- Double waved: Reduce your speed significantly, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track and/or marshals working on or beside the track.

Yellow flags should normally be shown only at the marshal post immediately preceding the hazard.

In some cases, however, the Clerk of the Course may order them to be shown at more than one marshal post preceding an incident.
Overtaking is not permitted between the first yellow flag and the green flag displayed after the incident.
Yellow flags should not be shown in the pit lane unless there is an incident of which the driver should be made aware.

Appendix H 2012 - Recommendations for the supervision of the road and emergency services (PDF)

[Cam]

To get some education and understand how the system works and what information everyone has, please go and watch this video, then come back and comment: http://www.emmotorsport.com/media

Okay, done that, good, now consider where he says "Marshals are empowered to activate the various warning systems and those decisions are directly communicated to race control who can override them if they choose to do so".

The marshall showed a green flag - perhaps as he decided to do so on his own - if race control overrode that decision, it was not until after Vettel was past that section (or maybe race control did override and the marshal ignored it??). It does not take away from the fact that Vettel was shown a green flag. There is enough evidence here to acquit RBR. A driver won't be punished for a race control error.

[Pup]

Is there a rule in F1 dealing with conflicting instructions from the marshals? I would think that - assuming they've anticipated the situation - that the rule would be to follow the more cautious instruction.

[Cam]

Is there a rule in F1 dealing with conflicting instructions from the marshals? I would think that - assuming they've anticipated the situation - that the rule would be to follow the more cautious instruction.

There in lies the kicker. I for one can't find a document outlining the order of warning systems. You'd think the dash and LEDs has more room for error - electrical failures etc, so marshals would be given priority? Also, what happens if there's radio failure from race control. The Marshals would have to have some autonomy and authority to judge a situation and act accordingly, everything else would be backups.

That said, I can't see it written as clearly as that anywhere.

[Cam]

These guys are professional enough to respect race controls' descions
I do not think he decided to wave that green flag on his own purpose.( let alone during an F1 final )

It actually makes perfect sense that green was waved at this location. The yellow flags and lights were shown because Maldonado had gone off into the barriers in turn 3 the lap before. The marshal post is just after turn 3, so green flag is what should be shown.

There's probably either a lag or calibration issue with the dash lights remaining on past that Marshal point (with the green flag). There was no issue on the straight and no reason to have yellows there at that point - hence the green flag. The only issue is the yellow dash lights remain on and and as has been stated in news reports and elsewhere, these are there as an aide only. The dash lights should not be considered gospel.

[vall]

It actually makes perfect sense that green was waved at this location. The yellow flags and lights were shown because Maldonado had gone off into the barriers in turn 3 the lap before. The marshal post is just after turn 3, so green flag is what should be shown.

There's probably either a lag or calibration issue with the dash lights remaining on past that Marshal point (with the green flag). There was no issue on the straight and no reason to have yellows there at that point - hence the green flag. The only issue is the yellow dash lights remain on and and as has been stated in news reports and elsewhere, these are there as an aide only. The dash lights should not be considered gospel.

There is no calibration error. On all footage I have seen from Vettel's car the dash yellow lights appear and disappear then the car passes the corresponding flashing screens, not where flags are waved by the marshals.