The curious case of Jenson Button

[JimClarkFan]

well in that time you had traction control, you could throw agresivly car in corner without losing grip or car balance. also tires were construsted in way you could push them without losing performances in next lap for couple of seconds. completly different cars, rules and what is most important driving style. button was never before pirelli tyers good preservere of tires, he had his moments on rain, but new modern formula maked possible that even "aho" like him without natural talent for speed win championship.

That might be true for 06, what about 09 Monaco though - I would quote more if there were any however it seems that most of his 09 pole laps have been lost

[Neno]

well in that time you had traction control, you could throw agresivly car in corner without losing grip or car balance. also tires were construsted in way you could push them without losing performances in next lap for couple of seconds. completly different cars, rules and what is most important driving style. button was never before pirelli tyers good preservere of tires, he had his moments on rain, but new modern formula maked possible that even "aho" like him without natural talent for speed win championship.

That might be true for 06, what about 09 Monaco though - I would quote more if there were any however it seems that most of his 09 pole laps have been lost

well his 2009 drives wasnt something special. he can thanks only FIA for not banning double diffusor, he only had one opponent first part of season and that was his teammate barichello, who is average second driver. If he couldn't beat him he really should consider finding new job instead driving f1 car. for second part of season he worked on collatering damage when others cars like RB5 started to make serious threat and instead how to win race he started avoid accidents and just colect points for winning sure championship.

his only brilliant move of 2009 is signing on end of year for mclaren and that move was outside of track.

I personaly hate 2009 season because everything good what i consider in f1 dissapered that year, and every year after that was worse for highest motosport as motosport not as tv show with magical buttons KERS, DRS and similar fake stuff

[JimClarkFan]

Button is driving well this season... so far. I remember somebody posting, I thought it was in this thread but can't find it, that Button drives well when nothing is expected of him, I think I am beginning to see this as well.

[beelsebob]

Button is driving well this season... so far. I remember somebody posting, I thought it was in this thread but can't find it, that Button drives well when nothing is expected of him, I think I am beginning to see this as well.

I'm not convinced Button's driving well. I wonder how good he would be looking with anyone other than Perez in the other seat.

[Neno]

Button is driving well this season... so far. I remember somebody posting, I thought it was in this thread but can't find it, that Button drives well when nothing is expected of him, I think I am beginning to see this as well.

Ofcourse he is driving well, he has no competition, or he is under pressure of winning points and losing to his better teammater as he had in hamilton, he is not candidate for championship as mclaren fu?ked up car, and only have couple of midfield drivers to beat, who are not many of them experienced, consistant or championship material. if he losed by them then he really would be worst championship winner ever in history of F1...

[JimClarkFan]

Button is driving well this season... so far. I remember somebody posting, I thought it was in this thread but can't find it, that Button drives well when nothing is expected of him, I think I am beginning to see this as well.

I'm not convinced Button's driving well. I wonder how good he would be looking with anyone other than Perez in the other seat.

He has the 5th fastest car on the grid at the moment, had it not been for the incident with the pits in malaysia, he probably could have grabbed 4th.

I actually don't think it is really up for debate if he is driving well, he is no Alonso that's for sure, but the Mclaren this year is nearly as awful as the Ferrari last year.

Perez is not doing coping well.

[beelsebob]

Button is driving well this season... so far. I remember somebody posting, I thought it was in this thread but can't find it, that Button drives well when nothing is expected of him, I think I am beginning to see this as well.

I'm not convinced Button's driving well. I wonder how good he would be looking with anyone other than Perez in the other seat.

He has the 5th fastest car on the grid at the moment, had it not been for the incident with the pits in malaysia, he probably could have grabbed 4th.

How do you know he doesn't have the fastest car on the grid, and is driving terribly? How do you know that Hamilton, Alonso, or Jim Clark in that car wouldn't be sticking it on pole?

[JimClarkFan]

How do you know he doesn't have the fastest car on the grid, and is driving terribly? How do you know that Hamilton, Alonso, or Jim Clark in that car wouldn't be sticking it on pole?

Common sense... come on man.
I'm sure Alonso or Hamilton would place it better, but the MP-28 is a dog and has been roundly criticized. Everyone knew they had problems at the second test onward, it's not like I'm alone in saying their car sucks.

[beelsebob]

How do you know he doesn't have the fastest car on the grid, and is driving terribly? How do you know that Hamilton, Alonso, or Jim Clark in that car wouldn't be sticking it on pole?

Common sense... come on man.
I'm sure Alonso or Hamilton would place it better, but the MP-28 is a dog and has been roundly criticized. Everyone knew they had problems at the second test onward, it's not like I'm alone in saying their car sucks.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that Button is driving exceptionally well. It could well be that the W04 is just as bad, and that Hamilton/Rosberg are making the difference to get it up there. I don't think there's any evidence to separate Button from car just now.

[raymondu999]

How do you know he doesn't have the fastest car on the grid, and is driving terribly? How do you know that Hamilton, Alonso, or Jim Clark in that car wouldn't be sticking it on pole?

Common sense... come on man.
I'm sure Alonso or Hamilton would place it better, but the MP-28 is a dog and has been roundly criticized. Everyone knew they had problems at the second test onward, it's not like I'm alone in saying their car sucks.

If we consider Hamilton as a "known quantity" against whom to benchmark - why not compare Button's results from previous years to current results?

If we compare how his performances have improved (or worsened) compared to the last 3 years and use that to "normalise" the comparison somehow - then we could extrapolate with some (but not complete) accuracy how Hamilton would fare.

[Phil]

If we compare how his performances have improved (or worsened) compared to the last 3 years and use that to "normalise" the comparison somehow - then we could extrapolate with some (but not complete) accuracy how Hamilton would fare.

Interesting idea... wouldn't mind seeing the results of this.
Although to be fair, I think when the car (set up) was to Jensons liking, the gap to Lewis used to be a whole lot smaller than when it wasn't. I thought it was quite apparent that in a car that isn't to Jensons liking, the gap used to be rather big - big as in a couple of tenths. I think the same applies here too to some degree - if the MP-28 is rather difficult drive (unbalanced), I would probably think Lewis would outpace him by a bigger margin.

So, what is the characteristics of the MP-28 - just plain unbalanced or rather balanced but slow?

[JimClarkFan]

If we compare how his performances have improved (or worsened) compared to the last 3 years and use that to "normalise" the comparison somehow - then we could extrapolate with some (but not complete) accuracy how Hamilton would fare.

Interesting idea... wouldn't mind seeing the results of this.
Although to be fair, I think when the car (set up) was to Jensons liking, the gap to Lewis used to be a whole lot smaller than when it wasn't. I thought it was quite apparent that in a car that isn't to Jensons liking, the gap used to be rather big - big as in a couple of tenths. I think the same applies here too to some degree - if the MP-28 is rather difficult drive (unbalanced), I would probably think Lewis would outpace him by a bigger margin.

So, what is the characteristics of the MP-28 - just plain unbalanced or rather balanced but slow?

Yes I agree it would be a good idea, however it would be very difficult to do, and never to everyone's liking.

BTW: The MP-28 suffers from ride problems, which is thought to be due to something happening with the airflow at the back of the car... so we are lead to believe anyway. As far as I understand it, the car is bouncing around in an unpredictable manner so grip is also unpredictable as a result.

[Neno]

So, what is the characteristics of the MP-28 - just plain unbalanced or rather balanced but slow?

Both. Car is unbalanced to drive fast, loosing first rear end, then front (due ride-hight problems). Jenson said something like that in Melbourne, so i think they have now better balance, but they sacrificing speed for that.

[raymondu999]

Easiest way would be to average the dry qualifying gap, per circuit. ie take the mean difference between the drivers in whichever last qualifying they both contested in. Then apply that gap to 2013. Of course, Malaysia was wet, so probably snouldn't be counted either.

Then see where pseudo-Hamilton qualifies.

[JimClarkFan]

Easiest way would be to average the dry qualifying gap, per circuit. ie take the mean difference between the drivers in whichever last qualifying they both contested in. Then apply that gap to 2013. Of course, Malaysia was wet, so probably snouldn't be counted either.

Then see where pseudo-Hamilton qualifies.

The issue with this is that you are looking at past performance, and by adding or subtracting Hamiltons gap onto Buttons it assumes that Button is only capable of driving to his mean performance over the past few years, and therefore discounts the potential that he is actually driving better.

In any event I would also prefer that where they finish in the race is counted over where they qualify as most of the driving is done on the Sunday.

So you can see that there is very limited value in this, and potentially only arguments

I believe Button is driving very well, which is a subjective judgement based on where I feel the car is capable of qualifying and finishing in the race, and based on what I see and what others are saying about the Mclaren.

Of course others are going to disagree, and they can, and should... however it should stand to reason that the point they make is at least a reasonable one. Suggesting that Mclaren might have the best car, though I understand why such a comment has been made (namely Button is masking its performance by driving it poorly) is ridiculous based on all other commentary on the car.