Arab in F1

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
G-Rock
G-Rock
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Joined: 27 Jul 2006, 20:05
Location: Ridgetown, ON

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Very true Manchild but it won't take much to ensure that he is "NOT" a suicide bomber, just check his race suit before every race! And yes he has worked his way up the ranks but a lot of terrorists are very determined people, just look at the 911 bombers, they spent a year learning how to fly a jetliner.
Maybe FIA should have been a bit more aggressive on Satos (and many other Japanese) driving behaviours in the past. Does the word "Kamikazee" ring a bell?
Generalizations don't just pop up out of thin air. They have roots. I should know, being of Dutch origin i constantly have to defend my perceived "Cheapness" or my desire to give people "Dutch ovens" while sound asleep in their beds. Where these generalizations came from, i don't know, but they ARE true to a certain extent.
I live near the US/Canada border and yes, if you are middle eastern looking, then you will get harrassed more then a causasian who just went shopping at LL Bean. It could be racial profiling OR the fact that most modern day terrrorists come from the middle east.
So back to F1; of course i'm sure that this arab driver (from Lebanon) isn't a suicide bomber but parochialism exists in F1 and we shouldn't be afraid to joke about it. After isn't humour the best medicine?
Rememeber how worked up the president of Italy became when Schumi danced and "mocked" the Italian national anthem "like a german soldier" during the award ceremony when he won the championship in well... i forget which one (between 2000 and 2004)?
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kimi_khodr_raikkonen
kimi_khodr_raikkonen
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Joined: 16 Jul 2006, 16:50
Location: lebanon

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hi i am from lebanon and i think shaaban the A1GP driver will be in f1 soon
he need a good sponsor !!! :lol: :lol:
kimi is the best

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

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I don't really care what some private e-mail says, if its all in good humour it's not rascist.

If someone made some anti-white comment about me in good humour I would probably laugh along, we're all the same inside.


I'm willing to bet all I own that this guy is no threat to anyone except the world championship. We'll see him in F1 one way or another.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

ginsu
ginsu
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Joined: 17 Jan 2006, 02:23

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ketanpaul wrote:
you have to be good looking (sponsors)
Well ginsu, I really dont think looks will be all that important for an Arab coz he will get all the money he needs from oil companies back home :lol: :lol: who knows even sheikh maktoum may also give him a couple of million bucks :lol: :lol:
Exactly my point. Why would a sponsor be interested in a driver? Because they can sell the image of the driver around the world. If the image of the driver is not appealing, then it will not sell. Arab oil companies will invest in something marketable, they aren't going to just throw money at a driver unless they can promote him.
I love to love Senna.

mcdenife
mcdenife
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Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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Tom wrote:
I don't really care what some private e-mail says, if its all in good humour it's not rascist.

If someone made some anti-white comment about me in good humour I would probably laugh along, we're all the same inside.
A racist comment is a racist comment good humour or not. You might find it funny and laugh along but others may not and take offence.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

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Hondanisti
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Joined: 05 Nov 2006, 18:37

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Diversity management in a pluralistic society has taught the people in North America how to handle these touchy situations when culture or race comes into play.

What one culture takes (eg. a joke) as being a test of ego (whether you're a team player in a reserved atmosphere or are you easily offended and take things personally too much) can on the other hand be taken as afront justification to keeping one blocked from advancement or perceived as part of an attitude in which the input by this "outgroup" (minority) is not taken seriously in terms of their ability and competence to take on leadership (rather than task-oriented or technician based) decisions .

Managing diversity takes experience and skill with an awareness of the perceptions of others. It doesn't work if you're part of the "ingroup" (group that holds the majority in decision making) and expect others to follow a certain culture's code all the time. There's a time and a place for that and everyone has to be on the same page for it.

The context of the project or problem to solve will determine whether you want a homogeneous team or a diverse team. In situations where you are exploring new ideas , you don't want "groupthink" and "yes" men/women. In situations of implementation, you want people to converge with "buy in" and all hands on deck without internal squabbling/politics due to cultural differences.

I guess my point here is to say whether you are offended or not depends on the culture from which you were raised and that it is not wrong or right to react in one way or another. However, what must get to the table is that everyone understands why each reaction occurs and assures that everyone is heard to the point that no-one over-reacts. Demanding "my way or the highway" which is what the extremists do, is a lazy stupid way of conducting problem solving.

If anyone cannot tell the difference between the various "Arabs" in the world then I submit that you are being lazy and ignorant. It would be like calling a Catholic French or Protestant British (because they are "white") to be the same as an Evangelical Southern American : "White".


If you get a chance, I suggest you take a look at some management business papers (eg. Harvard Business Review) on how we have evolved in terms of our expertise in managing diversity in North America (US & Canada) where pluralism is "fundamental" to our way of life.


Papers by Robin Ely and David A. Thomas from Harvard on the 3 paradigm approaches to diversity are very enlightening or work from Elizabeth Mannix at Cornell and Margaret A. Neale at Stanford are good primers to read if you are interested in this topic (search by google).


We hope to never become like the models of homogeneity intolerance (eg. KKK, Taliban) which are lazy and stupid models. And to whitewash a driver with a label of "Arab" and then come to some luggage assumptions that go with that label and then joke it off IMHO isn't a helpful nor sophisticated paradigm to follow.
Hungaroring 2006: Honda Stopped Dreaming & Got On With It!

INTEGRATION & LEARNING

G-Rock
G-Rock
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Joined: 27 Jul 2006, 20:05
Location: Ridgetown, ON

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I don't think it has anything to do with "diversity management" That seems to me as a step backwards. I think it has more to do with the fact that we live in an open democratic society that treats all races/cultures equally. That being said, all races are not equal in their traits/qualities. Every race/culture is different and that should be celebrated and not "managed"

As for generalizations, we should be able to make generalizations about other cultures. By how you are perceived by the rest of the world can help a culture define or redefine itself.

In the auto industry it is understood that when it comes to car owners manuals (that book in your glovebox) that Japanese read it only when a problem arises, Germans take it home to bed and fall asleep reading/studying it and North Americans don't even know it's there. Would that make a car manufacturer stupid for painting whole countries with the same brush? "I'm North American and I read my owners manual the first week I got it, wah wah, how dare Honda generalize me."


Other than that, i agree with Hondanisti
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mcdenife
mcdenife
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Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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G-Rock wrote:
That being said, all races are not equal in their traits/qualities.
All races are equal. Traits/qualities are subjective and cannot be used as a measure of equality.
Would that make a car manufacturer stupid for painting whole countries with the same brush? "I'm North American and I read my owners manual the first week I got it, wah wah, how dare Honda generalize me."
No. And it doesnt really matter who reads their manual or not. More than anything, this is a matter of choice and not about A being inferior/superior, or whatever, to B simply because he/she/they/it does/not read their manual. I am sure they would if they had a need to. Which is quite different from saying they cant. However you cannot compare this type of generalisation with generalisations based on ignorance such as "all arabs are terrorist" or "all muslims are terrorists" or for that matter that "all arabs are muslim" or "all Muslims are arabs" etc.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Reading manuals is sometimes sign of lack of knowledge and skill so it is not something superior by default. :wink:

miqi23
miqi23
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Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

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Alright alright give it a break guys, thats enough! Change the topic to 'Blacks in F1' if you guys are so interested 8)

kimi_khodr_raikkonen
kimi_khodr_raikkonen
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Joined: 16 Jul 2006, 16:50
Location: lebanon

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we hope to see any arabian driver

i have heared alot of chances for Bahraini drivers ... as bahrain have the biggest racing school in the arab countrys so i wouldnt be surprised to see a baraini soon .

i guess some of u have heared about dubai new track in 2009 ? im angry they want to take everything from bahrain . 8) 8)
kimi is the best

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Hondanisti
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Joined: 05 Nov 2006, 18:37

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G-Rock wrote:I don't think it has anything to do with "diversity management" That seems to me as a step backwards. I think it has more to do with the fact that we live in an open democratic society that treats all races/cultures equally. That being said, all races are not equal in their traits/qualities. Every race/culture is different and that should be celebrated and not "managed"

As for generalizations, we should be able to make generalizations about other cultures. By how you are perceived by the rest of the world can help a culture define or redefine itself.


....Other than that, i agree with Hondanisti
LOL

yes well I doubt an F1 Technical forum is the appropriate place to discuss diversity or it's management or whether it's regressive in detail.

Whether you actually agree with me or not isn't the point, since high performance decision makers are using these diversity concepts today in successful projects or companies in North America today. They have considered your idea that enhancing diversity could be regressive and against the victories gained in the sixties. They've validated that it has not been regressive because in reality, the "outgroup" (minority) are actually getting the respect and positions that were never offered even in the race-blind approach. There isn't a notion of tokenism (Access & Legitimacy paradigm of diversity) . We've moved on from that as a starting point and oh yeah, they win - their bottomline is better because of diversity.

And yes, a democracy is fundamental to that evolution of the original idea of eliminating hate and ignorance.

Your comment that I quoted above is actually one of the 3 paradigms of diversity that I had mentioned categorized by Ely & Thomas. : the gender or race blind policy called the "Discrimination & Fairness" paradigm.


Unfortunately, it's the oldest and most obsolete one that historically thus far has lead to entrenched unsolvable policies and paradoxically enhances never ending racism that still exists, despite its good intention . The problems of diversity persist long after the civil rights changes of the sixties in the noble attempt of being race-blind.


To ignorantly lump "Arabs" into 1 category without knowing or identifying differences within that group and then generalizing (stereotyping) but then, falling back on the "there is (in theory or intention ) no difference in how we treat all cultures & we're all the same (when in reality there are differences still) " rhetoric actually enhances the entrenched position that one's own cultural standards are the default standards and ironically prevents one to reach out of one's own culture to understand anything about a different culture and their nuances. If you don't understand, you cannot solve the problem or you end up sweeping the problem under the rug by proclaiming equality in theory without actually solving it.

There have been several business cases already presented showing the advantage of diversity in providing a larger repertoire of solutions compared to a homogeneous team or group. The persistent problem in diversity is when does it no longer become an advantage ? There's a time and place for when we seek diversity and there's a place & time to seek convergence or unity. The context of the project is everything. To get to consensus agreement (all hands on deck, rally the troops), you must first acknowledge the differences and genuinely incorporate their contribution to the overall solution to get that "buy in". If you don't first understand the differences or acknowledge the differences with equal participation , your credibility amongst the diverse groups is tenuous.




As was said, before, did the person posting this thread topic even consider the notion that just because a person comes from a certain country, it doesn't necessarily mean that they belong to the most common "race" there. And even if they did, does this person realize the differences within that race just as there are subtleties and differences within the "Caucasian" race ? Not all "Arabs" think the same way - a radical notion for the original poster perhaps ?
Hungaroring 2006: Honda Stopped Dreaming & Got On With It!

INTEGRATION & LEARNING

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taleed
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Joined: 19 Mar 2006, 18:46
Location: Oman/Muscat

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I know that there are alot of people out there that are racist to Arabs, but those people do not have the right to say that terrorists is basically another name for arabs because of what you see on the news. I come from the MiddleEast and I am proud to be called an Arab. I hope you understand what i'm trying to say and humor will be tolerated. Please think twice before what you say in this respectable website because it could be insulting to others.
There is a place for those who dare to dream

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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I try to say this tiptoeing, but I can't be the only one that thinks that many times "terrorist" is another name for people that is fighting for their family and friends under asymmetric conditions.

I also can't be the only one who doesn't care where a pilot comes from and that thinks that nationalities are a little "quaint".

Instead of asking for a pilot from Eastasia, we could ask for Eastasia to build kart tracks! Pilots will come in time except, of course, during Hateweek. :wink:
Ciro

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

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Some Bond film:
One man's terrorist is anothers freedom fighter
but thats not what's being debated. If this guys good then i don't care if his father was responsible for the London bombings, as long as he's clean. And anyway, there are probably as many British born terrorists as there are Arab, its nothing to do with nationality really.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.