McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
sAx
sAx
1
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 13:38

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:
sAx wrote:The realtive mertits of push rod v pull rod are well understood. However, the design philosophy for 2013 is not going to roll-over to 2014 with linear correlation when there is such a fundamental change in power train. I'm not sure where the new V6's place the CoG, but i'd bet a few $$$'s that it won't harmonise well with this season's V8's. So whatever benefits that come out from pull-rod in 2013, will in all likelihood offer little benifit in 2014.
I do not agree with your view. The relevant change for 2014 with regard to pull/push front rod design isn't likely to be the power train, it is going to be the low nose configuration. And I can relate to the advantages of a pull rod config when you are dealing with the extremely low noses we are going to have from next year on. It makes sense from a design strategy point to sort this out well ahead of the 2014 season, unless you experience the difficulties that McLaren now found. But I bet they did never consider to have the problem in the first place. If you remember how long it took Red Bull to get their exhaust solution to work last year you see the potential gravity of the problem. There are potentially big rewards, but you can fight an uphill battle for six or eight races which is very nerv racking to do.
It's F1T, so your view is welcome. Sure your more than famiiar with the mutually exclusive requirements for intercooler, turbo cooling, wider side-pods for the 2014 V6's and aerodynamics to maximise downforce. So in my view aero will play a large part in how suspensions will be designed to maxmise aero efficiency for the the new power train requirements. So I am not of the view that every car on the grid next year will feature pull rod suspension to meet the lower nose regulations as there will be a trade-off between the particular benefits of the two approaches (ability to rapidly make changes to pull rod configuration being just one re: Ferrari last and McLaren this year). Therefore the benefit of pull-rods this year, will not be an automatic transfer of benefit to V6's next year, in my view.
Integrity, Trust, Respect.

Follow me: http://twitter.com/#!/sAx247

sAx
sAx
1
Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 13:38

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

Holm86 wrote:
sAx wrote:
The realtive mertits of push rod v pull rod are well understood. However, the design philosophy for 2013 is not going to roll-over to 2014 with linear correlation when there is such a fundamental change in power train. I'm not sure where the new V6's place the CoG, but i'd bet a few $$$'s that it won't harmonise well with this season's V8's. So whatever benefits that come out from pull-rod in 2013, will in all likelihood offer little benifit in 2014.
I dont get what you are saying. Its not only the engine that determines the CoG of a car. Albeit its the largest factor.
Wasn't suggesting that either. Sorry for confusion, but what I was trying to say was that the different installation requirments of the 2014 V6's (narrow angle, higher in chassis?) and all the turbo ancilliary piping and intercoolers, will have a different effect on the CoG, than lets say this years V8.
Integrity, Trust, Respect.

Follow me: http://twitter.com/#!/sAx247

bonjon1979
bonjon1979
30
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 17:16

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

Neno wrote:
KingHamilton01 wrote:Interesting article here, anderson believes that McLaren`s problem`s stem from there front wing!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21821853
Anderson is idiot, he proved that countless time. His predictions, belives are from different planet, anyone who has a bit a knowledge about f1, dose not trust one word from his mouth. This article is only intersting to this point to see what he now discovered new. Maybe Mclaren should hire Gary to solve them all their problems, maybe they could get a 10% more downforce then anyone else.
Quite, pretty sure that its the same front wing that was on the car when it was launched. A car h heaped praise on just by looking at it. If he had said this about the wing before this weekend then maybe you could give him some credit, as it is, he can say anything as the car is slow. There won't be one single problem with this car, it'll be a whole range of different things combining together to mess the car up. Otherwise known as a cluster-f&£k.

onewingedangel
onewingedangel
1
Joined: 12 Mar 2011, 02:05

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

I don't think front wing stall is the issue - the wing philosophy is virtually the same as the previous few years. More likely that they have tried to use the front suspension to interact with the flow off the front wing, and it's not being directed as intended - causing problems further back.

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

Argh, this is really frustrating.

Look, we can get as idea of how individual parts perform when they appear on a car in isolation.

We can get an idea of how parts as a sum perform, because we see them performing on track.

We can not get an idea of how individual parts perform when they appear as a sum. We can not say whether this is the front wing, we can not say whether this is the diffuser, we can't say if it's anything in between. We actually, can't even say if it's simply a mismatch between front wing and diffuser, and either one being changed could fix the problem.

Please please please stop guessing at "I think it's the front wing". You have no clue what the details of the airflow off the front wing is, how much downforce it produces, how well it drives air to other parts, etc.

All we know is, the car doesn't work just now. When McLaren fixes something, we'll be able to see what they changed to fix it (hopefully), and be able to tell what was wrong, when it happens.

henra
henra
53
Joined: 11 Mar 2012, 19:34

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

Owen.C93 wrote:But then from the outside it's hard to see what McLaren tried to achieve with this car. The nose is higher and they went for pullrod, but past that the body work is bigger, the undercut is less and they've gone for a sidepod entry from 08 that only Williams have stuck with so far.
That is exactly the problem I have with the MP4-28.
With Ferrari the agressively high nose makes obvious sense in combination with the very agressive coke bottle and the relatively big undercut under the exhaust bulge.
With the Mp4-28 the nose is very high as well so lots of air to be pushed around the sidepods. But then: Where is it supposed to go?. The back of the car looks bulkier and the undercut smaller/less agressive than that of the MP4-27. This seems counter- intuitive with the higher nose compared to MP4-27. Apart from easily conceivable trouble with the front pullrod I have some difficulties understanding the exact aerodynamic philosophy of this car.

Pup
Pup
50
Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

beelsebob wrote:You have no clue what the details of the airflow off the front wing is, how much downforce it produces, how well it drives air to other parts, etc.
Coincidentally, neither does McLaren. :P

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

Pup wrote:
beelsebob wrote:You have no clue what the details of the airflow off the front wing is, how much downforce it produces, how well it drives air to other parts, etc.
Coincidentally, neither does McLaren. :P
Haha, very true it appears, yes :P

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

richard_leeds wrote:
kilcoo316 wrote:Its even possible that they've got their structural design wrong. With that pullrod geometry, there must be stresses well above what any other team is experiencing, acting through both the uprights and the front bulkhead.
I did some sums on that last year :arrow: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 71#p319671
Just noticing that now. Good stuff - although I am not sure if I would agree with simply dividing the vertical force distribution through wishbone and pull road by 2. It would be a ratio of their angle to the horizontal. Unfortunately a little more geometric detail is needed.


I would guess that the McLaren alpha of pullroad to horizontal is substantially less than the Ferrari one. So you could quickly see how forces build up (17.5deg is 3x the force of 35deg).

munudeges
munudeges
-14
Joined: 10 Jun 2011, 17:08

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

Huntresa wrote:
munudeges wrote:
Huntresa wrote:It is also almost the same design philosophy as Lotus Fw...
:?

???? It is the same philosophy
:? :roll:

Lorenzo_Bandini
Lorenzo_Bandini
11
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 12:15

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

Neno wrote:
KingHamilton01 wrote:Interesting article here, anderson believes that McLaren`s problem`s stem from there front wing!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21821853
Anderson is idiot, he proved that countless time. His predictions, belives are from different planet, anyone who has a bit a knowledge about f1, dose not trust one word from his mouth. This article is only intersting to this point to see what he now discovered new. Maybe Mclaren should hire Gary to solve them all their problems, maybe they could get a 10% more downforce then anyone else.

WOW. Did you have design a car, a race winning car ? I don't think so, but him yes. He had much more knowledge than you, me, and everyone here.

You are free to disagree with him, and i'm fully agree with you that sometimes he says some weird thing, but to say he is an idiot it's not right.

wesley123
wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

Agreed, that is a bit too far imo.

Like said, he might sometimes be wrong, but so is scarbs for example. When you simply are not in the team you can only hear certain things from team members and see the cars.

What he does is absolutely nothing different than what we do, he is only a bit closer to the cars.

Like said, I dont see how you can say that about one that has been involved in the development on numerous cars, not to mention what he does is the same.

If we look in the big lines the only difference between him and this forum is the following;
1. In his eyes a car isnt suddenly godlike when it was fastest once, which happened here like 6 times already in the past 2 months.
2. In his eyes not everything is blown, unlike here when everything that looks a bit different and might be big enough to huise piping is immediately blown.
3. In his eyes a car that was fastest doesnt immediately have lots of secrets which makes it godlike, unlike what happened here multiple times before.

Honestly, the most wrong things Anderson has said will never beat the daily discussions here, where everything is blown and every car is approached like a god when it was fastest on 1 or 2 occasions.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

User avatar
KingHamilton01
3
Joined: 08 Jun 2012, 17:12

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

Lorenzo_Bandini wrote:
Neno wrote:
KingHamilton01 wrote:Interesting article here, anderson believes that McLaren`s problem`s stem from there front wing!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21821853
Anderson is idiot, he proved that countless time. His predictions, belives are from different planet, anyone who has a bit a knowledge about f1, dose not trust one word from his mouth. This article is only intersting to this point to see what he now discovered new. Maybe Mclaren should hire Gary to solve them all their problems, maybe they could get a 10% more downforce then anyone else.

WOW. Did you have design a car, a race winning car ? I don't think so, but him yes. He had much more knowledge than you, me, and everyone here.

You are free to disagree with him, and i'm fully agree with you that sometimes he says some weird thing, but to say he is an idiot it's not right.

Appreciate what you say there, don`t worry not taking much notice of what he said! bit of a moronic reply!
McLaren Mercedes

stefan_
stefan_
696
Joined: 04 Feb 2012, 12:43
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

Malaysia 2013 - Wednesday (20.03.2013)

Image
"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe." Murray Walker, San Marino 1985

User avatar
ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

Post

Based on whitmarsh and button, talking about the ride of the car and inconsistency. I feel this car has too much anti dive in the front suspension. Pull rod is not an issue it's the geometry itself.
I don't understand why they put the A arms so high up the side of the chassis, which basically goes where the push rod would be aerodynamically anyway.
There was some narrow minded view for going to this extreme, maybe to make some kind of gain based on simulation, but it didnt work out in real life on a bumpy track.
It's quite likely they were trying to make a car less sensitive to fuel load, when they did the suspension the way how they did it.
Because even in the rear, you will see that the geometry is quite different.
The car ended up being to rigid i think. It may very well ride almost as low with low fuel as it does high, but it's probably putting the forces into the control arms more than the dampers resulting in unchecked vibrations and disturbances affecting the aero.

I was watching the on board of the merc and the redbull, the suspension seems to have more movement.
Not to say my speculation is the problem with the car, but i'm just trying to work off what has been said about the car, and what is visually different between it, the other cars and the 2012 car.

Image
Looking at this picture, the dang a arms are where the pushrods used to be, so the aero benefit in that regard is canceled.
I mentioned earlier an aero benefit based on the shape of the arms themselves and also brake fairings aero but that is a side story.
Any other reasons as to why the A arms are placed so high and which so much anti dive?