ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

[A13EX_f]

I think the main problem here is that an rc car will have driving dynamics nowhere near a real car they accelerate too quickly and corner too well you don't really get understeer and oversteer the same way you do with a real car, if you've ever played GT5 I can see your solution being a similar experience to driving the redbull prototype car with a steering wheel set-up. I think the time effort and money might be better spend developing something that integrates into the next generation games consoles which can be programmes with more realistic dynamics, also the market would be much bigger.

[Smokes]

Biggest problem with simulators for games is the physic engine is detuned to make it easy to play. GT5 the brake never work properly you have to brake a lot earlier than needed and you get lot of understeer under accellaration.
The most realistic game was Grand prix legends but you need a steerwheel and an three pedal setup to play it. Even then it very difficult to get used to playing as cold tyres and no wings make the car slide everywhere untile you get the hang of getting heat into the tyres and being utterly smooth with the inputs.

From what you said previously you want to drive quickly but you stuggle with it, the only way you get better at it is pratice and confidence. Find a 100cc kart (dependant on how heavy you are )to rent and just go out an practice as you get more confident with the kart and find the racing line you will figure out how to go fast safely.

[andylaurence]

Let me get this right. You drove an R/C car in the 80s and found it hard, had a PS1 in the 90s and found that hard, tried a kart and got scared and came up with this? I think you need to try a modern simulator package and some decent hardware. For not a lot of cash, you can buy a decent simulator setup that is realistic enough to use as a training aid. Moreso than a non-representative vehicle with a delay from wheel input to visual feedback will give you, I'd say. I asked if you had tried this out in a non-HD manner and you sent me someone else's video recorded with a GoPro, clearly controlled as any other R/C car is - from the podium. I'd suggest you actually try it out, even if you just get a cheap camera and sit with your R/C controller by a telly. Without taking the first step of actually buying a radio controlled car to do some valid testing, you're just wasting our time.

[Smokes]

To start with we are not offering a solution, just an alternative with many benefits.

They way we like to see it, is as if we are trying to introduce the e-cigarette to smokers.
When referring to smokers consider being the race car enthusiasts.
What do smokers want ?
I am a smoker so I will tell you it is the nicotine, the drug that gives pleasure.
Pleasure comes form the brain when a stimulant triggers the release of a chemical stuff in there.

Look you if you want to get an adrenaline rush in R/C car is all about car control and getting a good setup an nailing a perfect line lap after lap; If you cannot do any of the following you will not enjoy it.

It the same with any form of motorsport racing but the adrenaline rush increases the faster you go.

if you want the adrenaline rush you have to take risks be under pressure from other competitors. If you cannot do that I would stick to smoking. Which come now where near a proper adrenaline rush.

[arrowscsrs]

I think the main problem here is that an rc car will have driving dynamics nowhere near a real car they accelerate too quickly and corner too well you don't really get understeer and oversteer the same way you do with a real car, if you've ever played GT5 I can see your solution being a similar experience to driving the redbull prototype car with a steering wheel set-up. I think the time effort and money might be better spend developing something that integrates into the next generation games consoles which can be programmes with more realistic dynamics, also the market would be much bigger.

I totally agree with you that basis what the market offers, an RC is not an F1.
But please consider we are not talking about any RC. It will be custom built and will be much bigger (5 - 6,6 ft long) and heavier that the normal RCs. Thereafter its various components will be much closer to an actual racer (kart or motorbike) than an RC game.
Following the above logic, would an RC being identical if ARROWS were to use actual F1 cars operated through a professional cockpit simulator ?
I am not suggesting that we will make an RC similar to an F1 car, at least not at the beginning, but what level of similarity would satisfy any potential user.

Now for not missing the woods for the tree, the whole idea is to put the ARROWS user in the driver's seat, offering the same feeling, in terms of field of view and on board conditions.
With regards to realism,

I have heard and I have no reasons to believe otherwise, that an F1 is not even easy to start rolling, let alone to drive or race her.
If that is so, even if any of us (the potential ARROW users) had access to an F1, he would still not being able to enjoy it.
So what would be the use of having it in the first place.
That is why you need to start form something less aggressive.
ARROWS will develop a full range of engines and set ups. As one gets better and better, he will be able to move on to the next level. From auto, to geared and from sport to competition.

So as we see it, at the beginning we stick to reproducing the on board reality. Performance will get developed as the users skills develop.

[arrowscsrs]

Biggest problem with simulators for games is the physic engine is detuned to make it easy to play. GT5 the brake never work properly you have to brake a lot earlier than needed and you get lot of understeer under accellaration.
The most realistic game was Grand prix legends but you need a steerwheel and an three pedal setup to play it. Even then it very difficult to get used to playing as cold tyres and no wings make the car slide everywhere untile you get the hang of getting heat into the tyres and being utterly smooth with the inputs.

From what you said previously you want to drive quickly but you stuggle with it, the only way you get better at it is pratice and confidence. Find a 100cc kart (dependant on how heavy you are )to rent and just go out an practice as you get more confident with the kart and find the racing line you will figure out how to go fast safely.

In connection to my previous post, I agree with you too, that a PC simulator, does not simulate the conditions of an actual F1 car.
In the sense that if driving the real thing is half as hard as I can imagine it is and PC simulators were to reproduce that, there would be no market for car simulator programs. Only pros would be able to handle them.
How much realistic is one form the other and how much assistance is offered by any simulator, this I do not know. But the fact remains that PC simulators help you out.

Thereafter this is about me.
True this is what I experienced, but that was years ago. I have no more interest in becoming a kart racer.
I would be interested though in the luxury of what ARROWS suggest.
My "traumatic" experience in the field gave birth to the ways it would have been easier and much more exciting for someone like me, or any newcomer to be able to experience the feeling from a different angle.

I cannot - how could I - disagree that kart racing is the closest to getting the race feeling.
But as long as karts employ a rear axle and not a differential, kart will never be race cars.

[arrowscsrs]

Let me get this right. You drove an R/C car in the 80s and found it hard, had a PS1 in the 90s and found that hard, tried a kart and got scared and came up with this? I think you need to try a modern simulator package and some decent hardware. For not a lot of cash, you can buy a decent simulator setup that is realistic enough to use as a training aid. Moreso than a non-representative vehicle with a delay from wheel input to visual feedback will give you, I'd say. I asked if you had tried this out in a non-HD manner and you sent me someone else's video recorded with a GoPro, clearly controlled as any other R/C car is - from the podium. I'd suggest you actually try it out, even if you just get a cheap camera and sit with your R/C controller by a telly. Without taking the first step of actually buying a radio controlled car to do some valid testing, you're just wasting our time.

Andy

As said this is not about me , but about people like me.

As to the link I sent you, I though you were inquiring about the visuals you can get from an on-board camera and whether you could be remotely operating a race car through these. Misunderstanding, sorry.

I could do what you propose, but what would it show me. Problems.
- Heavy vibration giving me headache in the first minute of so.
- Limited FOV through offering very poor perspective of the track.
- Inability to see the lines of the corner and as a result missing the corner altogether.

So to answer your question I cannot operate a car through these and even if I could, most of the people the project refers to, would not be able.

We can all start composing a list of a dozen wrongs.
But these would have been irrelevant as the car will not be the same. This was an 1/10 model and ARROWS are working on a 1/3 or 1/2,25 scale.
No just the dimensions (the camera positioned higher) but the weight of the model is increased, the mechanical parts are heavy duty, the car performs differently.
Problems exist and will be much more coming our way.

But we do not want to avoid them. We want to deal with and find a solution to them and a good one too.

All I am asking you guys is to tell me if you like the concept of you being able driving an RC car using the drivers views, while sited in a cockpit simulating the on-board conditions.

As to how real ARROWS can get I ask you the same question:
If ARROWS were to race actual F1 cars through a professional cockpit simulator, would that tantamount to driving the real car, save that the drivers would not be on board.

[andylaurence]

Firstly, who told you driving an F1 car is difficult? The only time I've seen this mentioned is on Top Gear. The F1 car I drove was one of the easiest and nicest cars I've driven.

You say there's no point in trying out a non-HD version of your concept because of heavy vibration. Won't that affect your proposal too? The FoV is only limited if you choose a camera with a FoV that's not appropriate. There's thousands of camera models out there - pick one with a FoV you feel is appropriate. My GoPro has a nice wide angle, which conveniently reduces the effects of vibration and also records in HD so you can see what it would have looked like at a later date. I also thought that this would be a good idea when I was a kid racing R/C cars. These days, I realise that a simulator would be cheaper, easier and more realistic. You'll get no feedback other than the audio/video; nothing through the wheel and no motion platform. Then there's the latency. I've used a Cruden simulator a few times and that's pretty immersive and drives like a real car. You can buy them off the shelf for about 120k Euro. I'd wager that's a better use of cash.

If you're not willing to do a proof of concept, then you're never going to get further than looking pretty stupid on a forum. I think you've peaked.

[arrowscsrs]

Firstly, who told you driving an F1 car is difficult? The only time I've seen this mentioned is on Top Gear. The F1 car I drove was one of the easiest and nicest cars I've driven.

You say there's no point in trying out a non-HD version of your concept because of heavy vibration. Won't that affect your proposal too? The FoV is only limited if you choose a camera with a FoV that's not appropriate. There's thousands of camera models out there - pick one with a FoV you feel is appropriate. My GoPro has a nice wide angle, which conveniently reduces the effects of vibration and also records in HD so you can see what it would have looked like at a later date. I also thought that this would be a good idea when I was a kid racing R/C cars. These days, I realise that a simulator would be cheaper, easier and more realistic. You'll get no feedback other than the audio/video; nothing through the wheel and no motion platform. Then there's the latency. I've used a Cruden simulator a few times and that's pretty immersive and drives like a real car. You can buy them off the shelf for about 120k Euro. I'd wager that's a better use of cash.

If you're not willing to do a proof of concept, then you're never going to get further than looking pretty stupid on a forum. I think you've peaked.

Andy,

First things first on how an F1 car drives, I have never driven any, so I take your word for that.

When I list the problems using a Go Pro as you propose, the FOV problem was related to the positioning of the
camera on the model, being too close to the ground, the perspective is all wrong.

As with regards to the vibrations, I disagree with you, because I cannot know at this stage what kind of vibration the
ARROWS race car will produce.
If you think of it, putting a camera it on a 1/5 model is the exact same thing - but on the other extreme - as putting
a camera on my street car and see how it goes. It will give a completely false picture of what we will actually experience.
So I see your point, but it will not give us any reliable information to base our decisions upon.

If you say the Go Pro does the trick, action cameras were the first option for us too, I am glad that you agree it will
work as an option.

The latency issue exists and is one frame at 30fps (as per manufacturers specifications).
It is low but it is there. We are considering alternative solutions to see if we can minimize it further.

At a point you claim that "These days, I realise that a simulator would be cheaper, easier and more realistic".
I guess you are comparing PC gaming to RC racing and that is for open discussions with the others.
But you then go on making decisions of what ARROWS will look like, although it does not even exist, which is not right.
And my difficulty is to persuade you that ARROWS will NOT be like anything around.
It will be something new, combining different existing technologies in a new format.

What you mention for the Cruden simulator is actually very interesting. It is that quality of simulation I am talking about, but with the difference that the race car is not virtual.

If I read you well, you claim connecting 20 120K Cruden simulators and have them rented for people to race and compete each other in their virtual environment, is a better investment than what ARROWS suggests.
You now my position.
So let me rephrase my yesterday question to you.
If ARROWS were to race actual F1 cars through a Cruden like cockpit, would you still argue that Cruden simulator racing virtual cars is more realistic ?

But then again,
Will people will be able, not only to drive but also to race an actual F1 car ?
Will regular guys like me be able to fully utilize what a Cruden simulator offers ?
Do we need that kind of "reality" in a game ?
Can we offer to people different level of difficulty, depending on their level of competency ?
I think these are the issues we will have to answer before asking what is the more realistic of the two.

PS.
Andy, I enjoy arguing with you and the other guys in the forum and it does good to us in ARROWS, since we can appreciate the way people perceive our project. But suggesting I look stupid just because I do not agree with you is not fair, to either of us.
I can appreciate the heat of the discussion and I can assure you no offense was taken.

[arrowscsrs]

It is a great pleasure to announce Mr Angelos Tsiaparas being the new member of the ARROWS team.
Angelos is currently in his 4th year studying as a mechanical engineer in the National technical University of Athens, with specialty in air and ground vehicles and being member of the institution's Formula SAE team.
We are proud to welcome him on board.

[A13EX_f]

clearly you are going to go ahead with something even though everyone is telling you not to bother.

one new problem i've spotted is that you are planning on making 1/3 scale cars, once you've made these where are you going to race them? there are very few circuits designed for anything bigger than 1/10 cars thats why racing a 1/5 scale car is rare especially in the uk.

also you should look carefully into the insurance requirements of what you are proposing, I highly doubt you being granted insurance for something of a similar size and weight to a go kart that has no driver.

I dont know if you've ever looked at 1/5 scale cars you should do a proof of concept with something like this before getting too involved.

[Manoah2u]

so let me get this right.

you want to invest € 100,000,000 in something is essentially something kids play with, scaled up,
have 33 days left, and have raised just € 9,00 euros.

You want digital control through internet on remote controlled rc cars [that run petrol] and 'race',
to gain a FAKE driving experience whilst controlling real fake f1 cars.

you expect there are going to be 'championships' about this or actual races [with prize money?],
suggesting you need a lot of transport costs to bring these 'simulators' from track to track.
which suggests you need 'teams' and sponsors and entry's with fees to make it a actual competition.

all along there are already simulators doing the same, with the same effect, without rc cars, but the exact
same effect. game competitions, from finalfantasy, dead or alive, to racing games.

in the meanwhile, this entire system is fake and you can invest quite simply by going REAL racing in a carting
competition, raceday on a track, or actually start your own driving career.
whilst there are lots of rc-races around already, so it's nothing new.

if you want any 'business success', i suggest you develop technology to implement a live screen into a rc controller,
and make it connect flawlessly to the rc device. anything else is uninteresting for the market.

to be honest, if i look at the vid and your claims and your 'generated' 'investment', with promises that everything will
be 'given back', it sounds more like a nigerian fraud mail with a western face on it, essentialy, it seems like a total con.

it would seem a little more trustworthy if you actually took the effort of doing a good video, instead of a household webcam recording mixed with some internet vids whereof i'm suspicious you hold no rights to thus copyrighting the material.

If you want to get 100 million investment, atleast invest some of your own and start buying a proper business suit, proper video background instead of some fence or rental appartment, and shoot some HD RC vids and cockpit simulator material,
and show why this investment would top out any game investment right now, keeping in mind next-gen consoles are just around the corner, with interactivity in mind.

i claim this is BS, and am highly suspicious, but let's show some actual effort put into the project outside of web browsing and copy-pasting and then provide some material that makes it in any way plausible it is commercially interesting.

[Richard]

Moved to the projects area

[autogyro]

We developed a very similar system for a radio controlled aurogyro in 1970.
It was based on a fully proven light autogyro with a 32 foot rotor.

The point I am making is that there is nothing new in this idea.

[arrowscsrs]

clearly you are going to go ahead with something even though everyone is telling you not to bother.

one new problem i've spotted is that you are planning on making 1/3 scale cars, once you've made these where are you going to race them? there are very few circuits designed for anything bigger than 1/10 cars thats why racing a 1/5 scale car is rare especially in the uk.

also you should look carefully into the insurance requirements of what you are proposing, I highly doubt you being granted insurance for something of a similar size and weight to a go kart that has no driver.

I dont know if you've ever looked at 1/5 scale cars you should do a proof of concept with something like this before getting too involved.


https://www.fg-onlineshop.de/idoc/image ... 123949.jpg
https://www.fg-onlineshop.de/idoc/image ... 123949.jpg

Thanks for yours.

Since I presented the concept I get reactions of both "love" and "hate".
There are mixed fillings generated and so I guess that is why I am stubborn, but with a cause

I appreciate both inputs, but we value most the non favorable ones, since they are exposing problems we are likely to face.
And the reason I enjoy replying to these messages is to start a conversation that will hopefully generate more input on potential failures, giving us the chance to consider them and find solutions for them.

Will these solutions solve the problems, they will.
How do we know, we will make them work.

This is the motto we are using.
We do know this is a gigantic project that will need more than a year to complete depending on the teams working on its various tasks.

Thereafter all I am trying is to transmit to all our passion and commitment for what we are trying to do.
All we ask of you is to give it a thought and point out to us the potential problems associated to this.

Coming to the point raised:

Safety of the participants, spectators and even more importantly the people working inside the track is of paramount importance.

That is why the tracks will need to have sand or gravel traps and safety nets around it, so a car will not be able to reach the net, while even in the case of a bad crash no particles will get outside the track.
Goes without saying that very few will be allowed in the track during operations, and those will be equipped with protecting gear.

So to start with safety issues, we will not be able to use the existing RC tracks.

Another reason will be the size of the existing tracks.
RC tracks are built to serve specific needs, mainly to allow the users to have good visual contact with the model. ARROWS models being controlled using an FPV system, no such constraints are applicable.

But a problem exists also because of the size of an ARROW model. The existing RC tracks are too short and narrow for an ARROW model to fully deploy its abilities. In existing RC tracks the ARROWS models will suffocate.

A solution would be to use kart tracks. That could be an option as long as the tracks are in a good condition and well designed.

But I guess the best track for an ARROWS race car model would be the best track as for any race car, only scaled down.
So the idea is for ARROWS to race on custom made tracks, ideally replicating existing famous race tracks, scaled down proportionally.

One last point is that many - if not all - compare the ARROWS model with the 1/5 scaled models of the market.

Although the FGs http://fg-modellsport-gmbh.de the RS5s http://www.rs5-modelsport.com , to mention just two, are undeniably state of the art models in their class, these are mainly toys, classified as such.

The ARROWS models will have nothing to do with them, their only similarity being they will be both remotely controlled.

An ARROWS race car being the size and weight of a kart and speeding at similar velocities can hardly be considered a toy.

Although undeniably a game, ARROWS will mainly address to adult people having driving experience, or younger having kart racing experience.

As with the proof of concept, a close friend of mine owners a shop selling RCs and has 1/5 models on display.
I can definitely have a Go Pro, or similar camera, positioned on one of these models he uses for demonstration and drive it around a track. But will the footage obtained give me any guidance on how it will look like in the actual ARROWS model?

As I have explained to Andy last week, I agree that we will need to make tests, but testing the concept with something it will not look like ARROWS scale model, will give us distorted info. Equally distorted info we would get should we were to put the concept to test using a vehicle to the opposite extreme, by positioning the camera on a street car.

And now for something I think is unique as well as a brilliant idea.
I recently discovered this project in the net, http://www.i-way.fr

Visit the site and you will appreciate the innovating use of cockpit simulators these guys offer.
Nothing to do with our project but the concept is the same. Getting the users inside the drivers’ seat and let them experience the feeling of racing.