Poll on 2013 Malaysian GP team orders

[lebesset]

http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... 04322.html

another unbelievable statement by horner bearing in mind they didn't bring webber in first in the normal manner
next thing he will be telling us that if vettel had been leading he would have brought webber in first to get him the undercut

[mnmracer]

http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsport ... 04322.html

another unbelievable statement by horner bearing in mind they didn't bring webber in first in the normal manner
next thing he will be telling us that if vettel had been leading he would have brought webber in first to get him the undercut

You could at least point out what statement you are talking about...

[mnmracer]

The team cut it too fine for Hamilton with his fuel. Now why would a driver from the same team stand to benefit from this error?

They did not 'cut him too fine'.
Hamilton used his advantage of a higher running engine (using more fuel) earlier in the race.
They both had that advantage, to driver some laps faster. Nico chose to use that advantage later, and he was punished for it.

Do we know that for sure?

Admittedly I did think that too, however what Ross Brawn said after the race would seem to indicate otherwise.

I thought Nico approached the pass on Hamilton in a rather silly way, by choosing the pass Hamilton in the first DRS zone he gave Hamilton the DRS advantage in the second zone which meant he was always getting re-passed. I reckon he could have got the job done had he aimed to pass in the second DRS rather than the first one.

Any quotes on it one way or another?

[turbof1]

I don't believe that Rosberg was low on fuel. They told Hamilton several times it was going to be tight, yet not one similar message was directed to Rosberg.

[WhiteBlue]

I don't believe that Rosberg was low on fuel. They told Hamilton several times it was going to be tight, yet not one similar message was directed to Rosberg.

You are right. That has been confirmed by paddock observers. Brawn lied to Rosberg about Hamilton's ability to go faster. Rosberg could have gone a higher pace than Hamilton due to prior excessive fuel use that Rosberg managed to avoid.

[Shrieker]

You have your own agenda, that's why you opened this topic. The situation at Merc wasn't even remotely similar to the one at RB. Rosberg and Hamilton overtook each other 3 times. I wrote this in the other topic also; Rosberg passed his team mate 3 times and in none of them had even a chance to pull a gap, was overtaken back right away. Basically, it could've gone on forever - or in this instance until both cars consumed so much fuel battling each other that they were both unable to finish the race. The team boss did the right thing.

You are right. That has been confirmed by paddock observers. Brawn lied to Rosberg about Hamilton's ability to go faster. Rosberg could have gone a higher pace than Hamilton due to prior excessive fuel use that Rosberg managed to avoid.

If that's true, the same happened at Istanbul in 2010, Hamilton spent an entire race chasing the Red Bull's consuming precious fuel, and all the while Button sat back. Why should the team favor the driver who does nothing but sit back ?

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/03/27/r ... am-orders/

Ross Brawn tried to placate Rosberg by telling him Hamilton could go faster – yet his repeated urging of Hamilton to go slower showed that was not the case.

I think that Keith saw it quite correctly. To say that both drivers were equally low on fuel was a smoke screen. The logic of the radio traffic speak against that story.

[FoxHound]

"Lewis and Nico had already received the last ten laps of their race engineers commands to save fuel. This is documented on the radio channel."

Brawn as quoted by AMuS

The bottom line is, Lewis was quick if he needed to be quick. Equally Rosberg was quick if he needed to be quick.
Yet the underlying problem of letting them race each other is that they would both run out of fuel doing so.
And in so doing, also cost the team their highest ever points tally for a Grand Prix weekend.

Rosberg got some good points on the board in the process.

[NathanOlder]

I don't believe that Rosberg was low on fuel. They told Hamilton several times it was going to be tight, yet not one similar message was directed to Rosberg.

You are right. That has been confirmed by paddock observers. Brawn lied to Rosberg about Hamilton's ability to go faster. Rosberg could have gone a higher pace than Hamilton due to prior excessive fuel use that Rosberg managed to avoid.

Lewis could have gone faster! It was a FACT that the team told him to go slower to be able to finish the race.
Putting it simply, at the point Ross told Nico "Lewis can go faster" ask yourself, was it possible for the N0.10 Mercedes driven by Lewis Hamilton to lap faster than he currently was ? Yes or No. no if's no buts, no coconuts.
As someone pointed out, Lewis was pushing harder tha Nico in the first half of the race, and was under 2 seconds off the lead at one point, after he passed Vettel. Nico never challenged this far up, so it was clear Lewis pushed harder.
Mercedes (Ross) Let Lewis and Nico fight each other up untill about the last pit stop, and as far as I know, alot of the teams let their drivers battle up until the last pit stop. After that point its follow the leader unless cars are catching behind and the 2nd driver (on the track) in that team is faster than the 1st driver (on the track). What difference does it really make?

The Merc haters are having a pop about this, yet they are the ones mainly saying Merc wont be in the championship hunt. So whats the problem ? The only thing I see, is that these people fear Lewis Hamilton, and wanted to see Nico take 2pts off of him. Simple.

[wesley123]

I believe that in both cases team orders were justified. Imo they are always justified.

Both situations were pretty much the same from what I have read, drivers getting locked in their positions and preserve fuel, tires and engine, the latter comes in handy later.

With racing each other you only create an unnecessary risk of collisions and put in unnecesary stress on the cars parts. With that said, I doubt the outcome would have been different. The red Bulls would have finished 1-2 anyways and the Mercs 3-4 so on the WCC you gain nothing by racing, and on WDC you'd gain very little too.

The Red Bull and Mercedes team orders where in the same class, how their drivers handle it was a whole different question.

[mnmracer]

I don't believe that Rosberg was low on fuel. They told Hamilton several times it was going to be tight, yet not one similar message was directed to Rosberg.

You are right. That has been confirmed by paddock observers. Brawn lied to Rosberg about Hamilton's ability to go faster. Rosberg could have gone a higher pace than Hamilton due to prior excessive fuel use that Rosberg managed to avoid.

Lewis could have gone faster! It was a FACT that the team told him to go slower to be able to finish the race.
Putting it simply, at the point Ross told Nico "Lewis can go faster" ask yourself, was it possible for the N0.10 Mercedes driven by Lewis Hamilton to lap faster than he currently was ? Yes or No. no if's no buts, no coconuts.

But could he have pushed harder and still finish to bring home the points.
If it was just a question "would Rosberg be able to pass Hamilton", then even if Lewis could push harder, Nico would have passed him when Lewis parked his car with an empty tank.

Important piece of context.

[Just_a_fan]

Rosberg got some good points on the board in the process.

He also bagged some karma with Hamilton and the team. No doubt he will get the benefit of the call next time and Hamilton will be told to stay behind. Indeed Rosberg made that point on the radio during the race.

[raymondu999]

So Christian Horner clarified that Multi 21 refers to "Multicar finish, 2 ahead of 1." If 2 and 1 referring to car 2 (Mark) and car 1 (Sebastian). But he also clarified that Webber popped the wick back to full power - so it wasn't an unfair fight in the end. The first attack probably caught Mark by surprise, but after that Mark wasn't defending with less power.

I'm getting this off twitter (specifically, Maurice Hamilton on twitter) as the show isn't on torrents yet, so yeah :p

Edit: just to clarify - Maurice Hamilton reported that this was from the sky f1 show - which as I said above I have not watched myself.

James Allen's analysis is a good read: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/03/t ... ix-dramas/

[WhiteBlue]

"Lewis and Nico had already received the last ten laps of their race engineers commands to save fuel. This is documented on the radio channel." Brawn as quoted by AMuS
.... the underlying problem of letting them race each other is that they would both run out of fuel doing so.

Nothing that Brawn said dismisses the theory that Nico at the end had more fuel to fight with than Lewis. Why else Hamilton would have said that Nico belonged on the podium instead of him. Most people actually believe that to be true as you can see from this poll.
So in my view the situation at Merc is pretty clear. If there was a team order to prevent drivers running out of fuel it should have given P3 to Rosberg.
The Red Bull team order in my view was equally pointless. You don't reign in your faster driver and cost him seven points in an important WDC campaign just to save marginal power on the engines. The team order IMO was simply done because the Red Bull leadership knew that a repeat of Turkey 2010 was entirely possible where the team mates did not give each other enough room to safely pass. If you look at Webber's driving when the fight was on you clearly see that this fear was justified. Seb had to go off track to pass him. That fight was for the championship lead and as hard as against any other driver of any team. Red Bull IMO simply picked the lesser of two evils knowing that Mark would not cooperate again to execute the most gain full team strategy. Seb IMO did not accept the pussyfooting strategy and took it in his own hands. The rest is history.

[beelsebob]

"Lewis and Nico had already received the last ten laps of their race engineers commands to save fuel. This is documented on the radio channel." Brawn as quoted by AMuS
.... the underlying problem of letting them race each other is that they would both run out of fuel doing so.

Nothing that Brawn said dismisses the theory that Nico at the end had more fuel to fight with than Lewis. Why else Hamilton would have said that Nico belonged on the podium instead of him.

Because at the time, Lewis had no information on how much fuel Nico did or didn't have, and only had the gut wrenching feeling of having finished 3rd to his best mate's 4th due to team orders.