Poll on 2013 Malaysian GP team orders

[WhiteBlue]

James Allen's analysis is a good read: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/03/t ... ix-dramas/

Horner needs Vettel and Webber to work together and rack up the points if they are to resist Ferrari and others in the constructors’ championship this year. That is where the real money is in F1, not the driver’s standings, which are a ‘nice to have.

On superficial inspection the money argument may appear correct but it is misleading. A WDC creates huge advertising value equivalent for Red Bull and they clearly treasure that higher than 10 or 15 million $ in price money.

I agree with the view that the fight between Vettel and Webber was fought on equal material. You could see that Webber was on the limit but Vettel had the tyre advantage at that point.

[mnmracer]

If there was still any doubt about the engine, Horner has now cleared that up:
"Mark Webber was not on ‘reduced engine power’."

[turbof1]

Still unfair though; he only got to rev up his engine after Vettel closed in enough. After that, Vettel could keep gaining due the double drs.

[FoxHound]

Nothing that Brawn said dismisses the theory that Nico at the end had more fuel to fight with than Lewis. Why else Hamilton would have said that Nico belonged on the podium instead of him.

Hamilton said what he said and didn't know anything of the situation Rosberg was in. Had Hamilton known as soon as he jumped out the car that Rosberg benefited from longer fuel save running while Hamilton attempted to push the Red Bull's(as instructed by his team), maybe he wouldn't have been so gracious.

The fact is, Hamilton was the faster driver and proved that by outqualifying Rosberg. For over half the race, Hamilton was in a race with Red Bull, whilst Rosberg could benefit from clean air running and pacing himself with fuel save and Pirelli watch duties.

Once it became clear Mercedes where going to run out of fuel by continuing this pace, the call came. Rosberg had 2 bites of the Hamilton cherry and couldn't make it stick in the intervening period. In that same instance, Rosberg was also warned he was running marginal on fuel and would need to maintain position.
For Rosberg to ignore the order would have resulted in both cars DNF due to zero fuel. Hamilton had Rosberg covered, just.
If Rosberg wanted to race in this situation, Hamilton would have given him one as we saw with the re-passes.

To and fro for another 15/20 laps all the while burning fuel and using up rubber until eventually both cars grind to a halt BEFORE the chequered flag.

a)What a way to screw up in front of your sponsors
b)What a way for a team to shoot itself in the foot by throwing away its beat ever joint result.
c) Can you imagine how much Lauda would have to shoot Brawn with?

There are too may historical precedents that make the situation at Mercedes in Malaysia look like what it is, a storm in a tea cup. There is nothing wrong in what was done, it was prudent for BOTH drivers, and benefited the team.
The alternative was worse, Brawn knew that.

Most people actually believe that to be true as you can see from this poll.

So general consensus equals correct?

[mnmracer]

Still unfair though; he only got to rev up his engine after Vettel closed in enough. After that, Vettel could keep gaining due the double drs.

Webber himself said that he only was told to turn down the engine after the pit stop.
Vettel closed in the moment Webber got out of the pitlane.

I doubt the 0.3 seconds between leaving the pitlane and seeing Vettel made much of a difference.

[adam2003]

Why cant people move on, crist sick of seeing silly polls about the team orders.
Lets move on......

[lebesset]

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachment.p ... 1364304943

says it all for me

webber took the slower , safer tyre at the last stop because he knew he wouldn't be passed

the team tried to give vettel the undercut by pitting him first at the last stop

[WhiteBlue]

Why cant people move on, crist sick of seeing silly polls about the team orders.
Lets move on......

Because people want to be heard on that issue and want to hear what others have to say. 130 votes have been cast to prove that. So don't call silly what you simply don't like. You always have the option not to read a thread that bores you.

[bhall]

Why cant people move on, crist sick of seeing silly polls about the team orders.
Lets move on......

Because apparently it's hoped that the evolving contortions of logic on display here will eventually somehow rip open the fabric of spacetime, and those who feel their heroes have been (will be?) unjustly dispossessed will find their droning cries hurled toward the ears of the evil Team Principals at Red Bull and Mercedes to command them to respect the petulant desires of idol-worshippers everywhere. It's obvious. Or something.

For those playing along at home, remember this:

[...]
For me the guy simply is a loose cannon who cannot take orders when the team issues them. According to the rules the team has the right to do so and that is the main fact here which you conveniently forget. The fact that Horner had to come on the horn himself to make the order stick is ample proof of the fact that Webber has no discipline and cannot be trusted to deal with such a situation to the benefit of the team.

It's OK until it's not OK. OK?

What a joke.

[mnmracer]

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachment.p ... 1364304943

says it all for me

webber took the slower , safer tyre at the last stop because he knew he wouldn't be passed

the team tried to give vettel the undercut by pitting him first at the last stop

You do know a meme is not an actual representation of reality, right?

Webber took the hard tire because he told the team himself he felt more comfortable on the primes.

[Juzh]

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachment.p ... 1364304943

says it all for me

webber took the slower , safer tyre at the last stop because he knew he wouldn't be passed

the team tried to give vettel the undercut by pitting him first at the last stop

You do know a meme is not an actual representation of reality, right?

Webber took the hard tire because he told the team himself he felt more comfortable on the primes.

He also had no new soft tyres. Seb did. They gambled hard in quali and it ultimately paid off. Horner stated in a bbc interview after the team's post race briefing that both drivers were running same engine mode at the time mark came out of the pits. Mark only detuned his engine after vettel was past him, which he was forced to do because he used more fuel than Seb at the time. As far as I'm concerned, it was a head to head battle with no handicaps between both of them.

[NathanOlder]

But could he have pushed harder and still finish to bring home the points.
If it was just a question "would Rosberg be able to pass Hamilton", then even if Lewis could push harder, Nico would have passed him when Lewis parked his car with an empty tank.

Important piece of context.

No ifs or buts, yet people open their comments with but

[aral]

An interesting aside. When Nico overtook Hamilton, (who was supposed to be in fuel save mode), Hamilton was able to find enough power to repass Nico, not just once, but several times. This seems to indicate that the Merc was not in fuel save mode, or that both cars were running the same mode. Forward to Webber / vettel. Exactly the same scenario. So what is the difference?............Nico TOLD to drop back, Vettel not actually told to drop back. RBR could have ordered Vettel into a quick pitstop, if they really wanted Webber to win.

[DaveKillens]

Due to the financial structure within Formula One where teams are amply rewarded for points finish in the WCC and where many people have become uber-rich because Bernie took Formula One into big business, teams operate as teams, not as two individual drivers and cars. I understand how this came to be, and why having team orders just two races into the season makes sense.

But somehow, as over the years of the FISA–FOCA wars, countless Concorde Agreements, Ecclestone and Mosley usurping Balestre, and the many steps in the formation of the present structure of Formula One, they managed to place the cart before the horse. The primary source of energy (revenue?) is that it is a competition, and that the overwhelming majority of fans are attracted to the competition and support of various drivers. Because each race is televised live around the globe to tens of millions of fans, sponsors are attracted, and it's this money that is the gas in the tank that drives the engine known as Formula One.

But as a fan (not a supporter of the present hierarchy) my primary desire is to see hard competition between ALL drivers and cars from the start to the finish. NASCAR may be deserving of justified criticism in some aspects, but for this part, they got it right. No one is guaranteed anything in any race until the checkered flag flies, even team mates will battle like starving dogs over a steak on the last lap.

I can appreciate the requirement for discipline and complex strategies, and tolerate the artifices of DRS and weird tires, as long as I get to see competition. But when we get to the kind of scenarios we had in Malaysia, where one team had their cars in a secure 1-2 and the next team had their cars in a secure 3-4 and everyone was ordered to hold station, I'm suddenly very disappointed at what may have been.

I don't care that one driver may run out of gas and the team loses valuable WCC points, I don't care that power trains may be excessively stressed, because I did not get up at an unholy hour in the middle of the night to see my soufflé collapse.

Let them race, for the sake of not the teams, but the fans.

[No Lotus]

The team orders were stupid in both cases. Vettel is faster than Webber and proved it again. Rosberg was apparently faster than Hamilton that day and should have been permitted to pass and possibly catch Webber. No driver should ever expect to win a race based upon team orders. Prove it on track and if your teammate is not mature enough to bring his car home based upon fuel, that's his problem.