Poll on 2013 Malaysian GP team orders

[WhiteBlue]

For those playing along at home, remember this:

[...]
For me the guy simply is a loose cannon who cannot take orders when the team issues them. According to the rules the team has the right to do so and that is the main fact here which you conveniently forget. The fact that Horner had to come on the horn himself to make the order stick is ample proof of the fact that Webber has no discipline and cannot be trusted to deal with such a situation to the benefit of the team.

It's OK until it's not OK. OK? What a joke.

You can take years old quotations out of context and it will show nothing but your desire to antagonize. Why is it coming as a surprise that Vettel disobeys team orders when Webber did it all the time. I say it is not surprising given the history in the team. So afetr the provocation can we please get back on topic! I liked DaveKillen's point of view.

[theblackangus]

If there was still any doubt about the engine, Horner has now cleared that up:
"Mark Webber was not on ‘reduced engine power’."

Funny that quote you provided doesn't appear in the article you linked at all.

The word engine doesn't even appear in the article.

[theblackangus]

Still unfair though; he only got to rev up his engine after Vettel closed in enough. After that, Vettel could keep gaining due the double drs.

Webber himself said that he only was told to turn down the engine after the pit stop.
Vettel closed in the moment Webber got out of the pitlane.

I doubt the 0.3 seconds between leaving the pitlane and seeing Vettel made much of a difference.

You mis-quote an article then within a few posts you turn around and contradict yourself by saying this?

Where is that ignore feature?
I need it about now.

[raymondu999]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIfob1mv1Oo[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AapVavOVRR0[/youtube]

[Shrieker]

Let them race, for the sake of not the teams, but the fans.

You say that, completely disregarding the fact that a driver in an inferior car challenged to win the race, came close to taking the lead but burned too much fuel in the process. Would you rather see drivers fight for the win, or see them sit back, relax, knowing the fact that they'll safely make it to the end of the race in 4th-5th-6th or whatever ? That's exactly what a certain Mr. Hamilton's team mates were doing in Turkey 2010 and Malaysia 2013. Let the team mate do the hard work, and pounce once they are out of fuel/tyres. If the team doesn't care, that's encouragement right there for the drivers to just be safe and not even try. You'll end up with processions, guaranteed. You just don't punish the driver who tries. That's logic fail.

[raymondu999]

Disagree. The thing about the current no refuel formula is that it guarantees that what goes around, comes around.

I'd argue the inferior car challenged for the win *BECAUSE* he was burning too much fuel. Or if he wasn't - he challenged because he was running abnormally light (by virtue of not having enough fuel to complete the race distance) - that Rosberg could stay within enough distance to catch Hamilton again, despite being fueled heavier and/or saving more fuel - is to Rosberg's credit.

It just so happens that often nowadays, the best way to "keep trying and not play safe" is to "play safe first, play hard later."

[lebesset]

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachment.p ... 1364304943

says it all for me

webber took the slower , safer tyre at the last stop because he knew he wouldn't be passed

the team tried to give vettel the undercut by pitting him first at the last stop

You do know a meme is not an actual representation of reality, right?

Webber took the hard tire because he told the team himself he felt more comfortable on the primes.

He also had no new soft tyres. Seb did. They gambled hard in quali and it ultimately paid off. Horner stated in a bbc interview after the team's post race briefing that both drivers were running same engine mode at the time mark came out of the pits. Mark only detuned his engine after vettel was past him, which he was forced to do because he used more fuel than Seb at the time. As far as I'm concerned, it was a head to head battle with no handicaps between both of them.

webber had only used one set of mediums in the race

[raymondu999]

And used 2 sets in quali. Sebastian used 1 set in quali, 2 in the race.

Not used *up* but obviously Mark wanted to start each stint on new tyres.

[WhiteBlue]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIfob1mv1Oo[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AapVavOVRR0[/youtube]

Its worth noticing that Horner never mentioned engines as justification for the team order. He only talks about the drivers being on different tyre strategies and the concern that both could have over stressed the tyres in a fight through the last stint so that the Mercs could have threatened the 1-2 finish for Red Bull. He also mentioned that Mark Webber was lower on fuel than Sebastian.

Considering all this I still believe that Red Bull would have been better off to ask both drivers to give each other enough room instead of issuing team orders which they think for themselves will not be respected by the drivers. Horner literally said in the interview that he expects both his drivers to disregard team orders when they have a race win or a championship at stake. He mentioned Silverstone 2011 and Brazil 2012 as examples for Mark going against team strategy and you can bet that he silently added Turkey 2010 although he did not want to reopen that can of worms. For Seb it is the first time to disregard team orders but he has seen Mark do it several times and get re employed again. So it really cannot be such a big thing in that team to go for your own good. IMO team order at Red Bull is something like a red traffic light in Italy. It is a warning but nobody really cares if you disregard it and make your own assessment of the situation.

[PlatinumZealot]

Hamilton did all the dirty work of harassing the bulls, while Nico just laid back and saved fuel and then he wants preference at the end of the race?!! Ridiculous! I fully support the team orders given in Malaysia.

[mr moda]

Turkey was a racing incident. This has always been confirmed by the team. Can we let it rest.

[WhiteBlue]

Sure it was a racing accident. I agree. But a racing accident that involved team orders as well.

[raymondu999]

Hamilton did all the dirty work of harassing the bulls, while Nico just laid back and saved fuel and then he wants preference at the end of the race?!! Ridiculous! I fully support the team orders given in Malaysia.

Hamilton was running too rich or too light at the start of the race, while Nico had to suffer running heavier than Lewis at the start of the race (or he had a clearer idea of the big picture in terms of fuel consumption) and he doesn't get preference at the end of the race?!! Ridiculous! I fully disagree with the team orders given in Malaysia.

See what I did there?

You have to remember that Hamilton was running either too rich or too light on fuel early on - and paid for this at the end, while Rosberg paid for it at the start. Had they been on a 56-lap time trial, Rosberg probably would have out finished Hamilton. AND Hamilton admitted to that himself.

In other news - I still don't like any team orders. No matter what they are. I don't think they are suitable for a no-refuel formula, because in a no refuel formula, what goes around comes around (in terms of saving a pitstop, vs having older tyres, in terms of slower early in the stints to pounce later, running heavier earlier vs having more fuel later etc)

[beelsebob]

Hamilton did all the dirty work of harassing the bulls, while Nico just laid back and saved fuel and then he wants preference at the end of the race?!! Ridiculous! I fully support the team orders given in Malaysia.

Hamilton was running too rich or too light at the start of the race, while Nico had to suffer running heavier than Lewis at the start of the race (or he had a clearer idea of the big picture in terms of fuel consumption) and he doesn't get preference at the end of the race?!! Ridiculous! I fully disagree with the team orders given in Malaysia.

Once again, this is making assumptions that Nico actually had more fuel than Lewis at the end of the race. I've not seen any evidence of that yet.

[NathanOlder]

Hamilton did all the dirty work of harassing the bulls, while Nico just laid back and saved fuel and then he wants preference at the end of the race?!! Ridiculous! I fully support the team orders given in Malaysia.

Well said, =D> End of topic n my view.