Poll on 2013 Malaysian GP team orders

[Cam]

I can understand Mercedes holding position. A bankable 3 & 4 on the second race of the season - outstanding result, especially when everyone is calling (and getting) heads to roll within the team, with questions whether Mercedes will stay in F1 and questions over the car - it was a prudent and valuable result for a team under pressure with an added overall positive PR story displaying a 'united team' and 'responsible drivers'. Win-win for the team, win-win for the brand.

RedBull - not so much. The exact same scenario occurred for them and it was handled poorly. The team orders where prudent - at a time when tire life is still an unknown and one safety car could have a pack right on them. Vettel had no way of knowing if a 'cliff' was just around the corner and could have easily lost several places.

While we all admire the 'killer' instinct - at some stage you have to decide - are you a winner or a...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn481KcjvMo[/youtube]

[Juzh]

@cam
Vettel did a 17 lap stint on his new mediums early in the race while fuel heavy. He knew exactly how much his tyres had in hand in the last stint and rockey's message about those tyres going off sooner were just hints to slow down even more while having little truth to them. He was cruising around anyway after he passed webber, just a fraction faster than both mercs which were in heavy fuel conservation mode, so he was taking it very easy indeed.

[Stradivarius]

While easier to accept at the moment, no doubt Rosberg would have found at the team lied to him. Not sure that would have gone over well...

That is exactly what I mean. Hence, I don't find it likely that Rosberg was low on fuel when he was asked to stay behind Hamilton. If he had been, he would have been given that information, not just an order to hold position.

[FoxHound]

While easier to accept at the moment, no doubt Rosberg would have found at the team lied to him. Not sure that would have gone over well...

That is exactly what I mean. Hence, I don't find it likely that Rosberg was low on fuel when he was asked to stay behind Hamilton. If he had been, he would have been given that information, not just an order to hold position.

I'm going to guess that you guys knew the fuel loads to come up with this theory?

[strad]

he would have been given that information, not just an order to hold position

The team doesn't owe him an explaination...He's an employee and should do as he's told...I'd sit him down and let him think about his sin.

[Cam]

@cam
Vettel did a 17 lap stint on his new mediums early in the race while fuel heavy. He knew exactly how much his tyres had in hand in the last stint and rockey's message about those tyres going off sooner were just hints to slow down even more while having little truth to them. He was cruising around anyway after he passed webber, just a fraction faster than both mercs which were in heavy fuel conservation mode, so he was taking it very easy indeed.

So when Horner said, in the interview with Ted Kravitz, "we had genuine concerns of not running out of tires before the end of the race" - he was lying? Sorry, I'm just trying to understand why you said 'he knew' - regarding Vettel - how much his tyres had in hand. All signs point to a winter test that was pointless with little real data gathered, then with the first race colder than expected also hampering teams understandings of the tires - so how did Vettel know without doubt? If there's some other article I've missed, can you please show me.

Horner stated Vettel had new tires at the last stint, and wanted to 'capitalise on early laps', that I can understand, but knowing exactly how the tires will react at the end of said stint, so soon in the season, Vettel must be a genius.

Edit: Horner gave prudent team orders - they weren't confident in the tires - bank a great result, IMO.

[Juzh]

Vettel had very good data from his first stint on new meds which was longer than his final stint even though he was still fat will fuel. There was no real danger of eating trough them.

[Cam]

I hear you and I do understand what you're saying - one set of tires data. Personally, I don't agree that one set of tire data on one stint was enough to know, without doubt, that the tires would last. RedBull will know either way, we're left with educated guesses based on reported media and what we can see on screen. If we were half way through the season, I would tend to agree with your theory, I feel it's just to early to be definitive on that - which is why I called Vettel a 'gambler' - in his head he might have known, but he didn't really, he couldn't - heck, even the team principal didn't - which is why, as stated by the man himself, Horner gave the order.

[Stradivarius]

While easier to accept at the moment, no doubt Rosberg would have found at the team lied to him. Not sure that would have gone over well...

That is exactly what I mean. Hence, I don't find it likely that Rosberg was low on fuel when he was asked to stay behind Hamilton. If he had been, he would have been given that information, not just an order to hold position.

I'm going to guess that you guys knew the fuel loads to come up with this theory?

I believe it is quite evident that this theory is not based on knowing the fuel load, but rather the fact that Rosberg was given the order to hold position, not to save fuel. Further, I find it likely that if Rosberg had been told he needed to slow down in order to conserve fuel, or else he wouldn't be able to finish the race, he would be more likely to accept and follow the order immediately. The only reason I can find not to tell Rosberg that he needed to save fuel, is that it wasn't the case.

[FoxHound]

I believe it is quite evident that this theory is not based on knowing the fuel load, but rather the fact that Rosberg was given the order to hold position, not to save fuel. Further, I find it likely that if Rosberg had been told he needed to slow down in order to conserve fuel, or else he wouldn't be able to finish the race, he would be more likely to accept and follow the order immediately. The only reason I can find not to tell Rosberg that he needed to save fuel, is that it wasn't the case.

Are you sure?

Sure enough to come to a conclusion that Mercedes where somehow protecting Hamilton from a resurgent Rosberg, and it had nothing to do with fuel for both drivers?

Mercedes had concerns about the fuel consumption of both drivers and asked them to save fuel in the second half of the race, Hamliton’s being the more critical.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/03/h ... am-orders/

"Had I not acted, the both driver's would have run out of fuel."

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 02387.html


So the real facts are that Rosberg was told to conserve fuel, by holding position. James Allen and AMuS agree, and whilst neither are infallible, they get it right more times than not.

[FrukostScones]

I believe it is quite evident that this theory is not based on knowing the fuel load, but rather the fact that Rosberg was given the order to hold position, not to save fuel. Further, I find it likely that if Rosberg had been told he needed to slow down in order to conserve fuel, or else he wouldn't be able to finish the race, he would be more likely to accept and follow the order immediately. The only reason I can find not to tell Rosberg that he needed to save fuel, is that it wasn't the case.

Are you sure?

Sure enough to come to a conclusion that Mercedes where somehow protecting Hamilton from a resurgent Rosberg, and it had nothing to do with fuel for both drivers?

Mercedes had concerns about the fuel consumption of both drivers and asked them to save fuel in the second half of the race, Hamliton’s being the more critical.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/03/h ... am-orders/

"Had I not acted, the both driver's would have run out of fuel."

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 02387.html


So the real facts are that Rosberg was told to conserve fuel, by holding position. James Allen and AMuS agree, and whilst neither are infallible, they get it right more times than not.

Rsoberg already said that this wa a lie!

[beelsebob]

Rsoberg already said that this wa a lie!

So, on the one side, we have a bunch of analysts, and a couple of technical people from the team have all said that Rosberg was marginal on fuel. On the other side, Rosberg, who had the most to gain, and the least opportunity to have the actual information about it.

[FrukostScones]

Rsoberg already said that this wa a lie!

So, on the one side, we have a bunch of analysts, and a couple of technical people from the team have all said that Rosberg was marginal on fuel. On the other side, Rosberg, who had the most to gain, and the least opportunity to have the actual information about it.

yes, he flies in the night

didn't someone say that Rosberg deserved the podium. cough, of course because he was low on fuel.
... ah HAM also flies in the night... he didn't know that Rosberg was also low on fuel (he thought Ros was actually quicker), he said things without knowin the context and all facts....

gimme a break!

[WhiteBlue]

Multi-21 means car two ahead of car one. Multi-12 means car one ahead of car two. It’s not complicated. It’s not that difficult to translate, but both our drivers in the last three races have failed to understand both of those messages. I think we’re going to give up on that code. We need to probably try something else.

So the team position now is that they know both their drivers will disregard this kind of order. Interesting to see what they will do and how they will sell it to the media.

[Richard]

I think the peril of forum debates is that they polarise things. Reality is likely to be much more pragmatic and have multiple factors in the decision making.

The prime objective in both RB and Merc's case was banking the points and bringing the cars home in formation. That's worth more than its weight in gold considering this team's recent history. No just one lucky car, but both in information. That team and their fans - steer well clear of "fans" apparently they're very strange creatures with a distorted sense of reality, they can render a sane person into a gibbering wreck ..... where was I? Oh yes... The team would do anything to finish up front in formation, which is why they gave the order to hold position.

The normal convention in F1 is that teams safeguard their positions towards the end of a race the focus is on bringing the car home towards the end of the race. There are no points to be gained in closing the gap to the car in front. We just need to ref Hamilton in Monza 2009 to realise the futility of letting speed distract from strategy.

To be honest I think we were spoilt by McLaren letting Hamilton and Button race side by side. That's an exception and often an error (Vettel & Webber in Turkey 2010).

So lets be pragmatic please.

..

.

To be explicit - Bickering over fuel loads, tyre life and "its a lie" and Multi 21 isn't getting this conversation anywhere. It was a pragmatic call by both teams to bank the points. Live with it.