New formula idea

[RickRick]

I keep having the same idea, i'm sure there must be some milage in a formula with very simple rules

open wheel cars
no refuling
supplied tires ie f1 pireli tires
same distance as f1 races
50l of fuel

maybe the amount of fuel would need looking at, but make the fuel force cars to be efficent low drag, and with no rules it should allow plenty of developmeant of err mad ideas

[beelsebob]

I keep having the same idea, i'm sure there must be some milage in a formula with very simple rules

open wheel cars
no refuling
supplied tires ie f1 pireli tires
same distance as f1 races
50l of fuel

maybe the amount of fuel would need looking at, but make the fuel force cars to be efficent low drag, and with no rules it should allow plenty of developmeant of err mad ideas

I've often thought about formulaé like this. It makes the engineers job much more interesting, because they can do pretty much anything within the bounds of the car's bounding box and safety. At the same time though it gives the constraint that keeps speeds down. The only issue I think is that the first few years of it would have *wildly* different cars, and likely wildly different paces between teams. It would take a while to converge onto the good ideas for cars.

[Tim.Wright]

Its a nice thought, but why restrict the tyres and why restrict the powertrain to a combustion engine??

Realistically, the problem with this is that such a series is not sustainable financially. Given an open rule book, the teams aren't capable of keeping themselves alive. This is why we have engine freezes, standard tyres and bans on trick differentials and suspension.

Safety is another aspect, but at least here its possible to engineer some safeguards into the rules.

If I was a billionaire, I'd gladly start such a series

[beelsebob]

Its a nice thought, but why restrict the tyres and why restrict the powertrain to a combustion engine??

Sorry, where did he specify the powertrain was restricted?

[Tim.Wright]

Its a nice thought, but why restrict the tyres and why restrict the powertrain to a combustion engine??

Sorry, where did he specify the powertrain was restricted?

I took it as implied since he specified 50L of fuel. If its not restricted to a combustion engine, why bother restricting the fuel?

[markc]

The idea of restricting fuel is to force efficiency, but yes if you wanted any power source then there would have to be some equivalency formula applied such that 50L petrol = x Diesel = y Voltamps = z dilithium crystals. Etc.

Personally I like your idea, it's got legs as it were!

[beelsebob]

The idea of restricting fuel is to force efficiency, but yes if you wanted any power source then there would have to be some equivalency formula applied such that 50L petrol = x Diesel = y Voltamps = z dilithium crystals. Etc.

Personally I like your idea, it's got legs as it were!

That's a nice idea – "you may have x kJ of energy stored any way you like at the start of the race".

[Stradivarius]

Its a nice thought, but why restrict the tyres and why restrict the powertrain to a combustion engine??

Sorry, where did he specify the powertrain was restricted?

I took it as implied since he specified 50L of fuel. If its not restricted to a combustion engine, why bother restricting the fuel?

With this formula, KERS would obviously be a must, as it would improve the efficiency and add power without increasing the fuel consumption. So it would obviously still make sense to restrict the fuel.

I also think this in many aspects is a great idea, but I see one issue which I suspect would be a problem: The most significant area of performance for racing car is by far the aerodynamics. So with no restrictions on the aerodynamics, I doubt there would be much innovation done on the engine/efficiency, as long as the greatest potential of improvement lies in the aerodynamics. In the very beginning the teams would probably optimize some kind of known technology and then mainly focus on aerodynamics. If I am correctly informed, the aerodynamic improvements made to formula 1 cars over one season is worth at least a couple of seconds in lap time, even with all the restrictions today. In order to gain a similar amount of lap time by increasing the efficiency and thereby the average engine power, the difference would have to be very large.

If one team could get an advantage of an average of 50 hp more than the opposition, that would be an incredible achievement in terms of fuel efficiency. But it wouldn't be worth more than a few tenths in lap time (given power outputs similar to today's car). Of course, if the fuel was limited to only 50 liters, the average power over 300 km would probably be much lower than today, even with the improved efficiency. In that context the benefit of 50 hp ekstra would mean more, but it would also be more difficult achieve.

So with such a formula I would think it necessary to restrict the aerodynamics in order to make it worth while to work on the fuel efficiency. On second thought, it may be that this formula wouldn't allow much aerodynamic downforce, because of the need to reduce drag and in that case it wouldn't be necessary with restrictions, as making a car close to the lowest drag possible is quite simple and won't be worth that much in lap time.

[Tim.Wright]

I also think this in many aspects is a great idea, but I see one issue which I suspect would be a problem: The most significant area of performance for racing car is by far the aerodynamics.

This is absolutely not true.

Once you remove all the restrictions imposed by the rules, aero is just another part of the puzzle along with suspension, differential, brakes etc...

[Stradivarius]

I also think this in many aspects is a great idea, but I see one issue which I suspect would be a problem: The most significant area of performance for racing car is by far the aerodynamics.

This is absolutely not true.

Once you remove all the restrictions imposed by the rules, aero is just another part of the puzzle along with suspension, differential, brakes etc...

What restrictions are you refering to? As far as I know, there are massive restrictions to the aerodynamics already in formula 1. Even if there are restrictions on suspension, differential and brakes that slow down the current formula 1 cars (compared to a situation without these restrictions), it doesn't mean there are several seconds to be gained through developing new suspension, differential and brakes.

For example, the size of the brake disks is limited in formula 1. In the proposed formula, all the cars would definitely optimize their brakes, and even if they would then perform better than the formula 1 cars today, they wouldn't be able to gain any significant amount of lap time over the competitors (because they would also then optimize their brakes).

[beelsebob]

I also think this in many aspects is a great idea, but I see one issue which I suspect would be a problem: The most significant area of performance for racing car is by far the aerodynamics.

This is absolutely not true.

Once you remove all the restrictions imposed by the rules, aero is just another part of the puzzle along with suspension, differential, brakes etc...

Indeed, one only needs to look at how much time Williams gained with a really crude active suspension setup to realise how much this is not true. Aero just happens to be the least restricted part of F1.

[beelsebob]

I also think this in many aspects is a great idea, but I see one issue which I suspect would be a problem: The most significant area of performance for racing car is by far the aerodynamics.

This is absolutely not true.

Once you remove all the restrictions imposed by the rules, aero is just another part of the puzzle along with suspension, differential, brakes etc...

What restrictions are you refering to?

How about the all out ban on using active suspension systems.
The all out ban on using electronics to manage tyre slip.
The all out ban on using anything that isn't a normally asperated 2.4l V8.
The all out ban on ...

Aero in F1 may well be restricted, but it's the least restricted part of the sport.

[Tim.Wright]

it doesn't mean there are several seconds to be gained through developing new suspension, differential and brakes.

In my opinion, you would easily arrive at a several second improvement if you were unrestricted in brakes, suspension and differential.

[Juzh]

I know this is only a concept and it doesn't actually work, but its a nice show of de-restriced aero. If a simple double diffuser can generate that much downforce compared to current single deckers, just imagine what can be done when there is no limits. Aero would play the most important part in that formula, thats for sure. 7g cornering would be nothing amazing in that conditions.

[turbof1]

It actually could work; remember that this car has been developed with real cfd and simulation work. Perhaps the engine power is unrealistic. Also notice that this car has relative simple aero. No refinements at all. Imagine if they worked on this project for 2 years and then tried it out on a real circuit.

Unfortunaly, not even the best pilot in the world would be able to push such a thing to its limit. It exceeds what humans can do. This thing should be fully automatic in order to keep things safe.