Mercedes AMG F1 W04

[retpog55]

After pre-season tests, Hamilton said W04 had less downforce than MP4-27, if i recall well "A LOT" less.

Red Bull said after Malaysia that too much downforce can be a problem for these Pirelli tyres. The W04 may have less downforce than some of the competition but ironically this could make it closer to the optimum zone in which to benefit more from the tyres.

[Vasconia]

Before I say that this season they will have a good development pace I prefer to wait until Canada. Last year they introduced a nice package in Barcelona and Monaco and after that nothing.

The most important thing for me is to see that the WO3 maintains the good long run pace. Obviously in the new package works well a victory could be possible in China but the main thing is to develope a good base for 2014, the information they are collecting now it will be essential for the WO5.

[Dyanxx]

After pre-season tests, Hamilton said W04 had less downforce than MP4-27, if i recall well "A LOT" less.
During tests they had surely tried different set-ups, so the car they had been runnig at AUS/MAL (no matter what set-ups used) lacked the same amount of downforce, right?

My point is no matter what are the other teams' upgrades, find more and more downforce on the W04 and can't see why both drivers should be write off the title

Didn't Button confirm that the MP4-28 had less downforce than the MP4-27? and wasn't that before they put the Melbourne package on the W04?

[Vasconia]

After pre-season tests, Hamilton said W04 had less downforce than MP4-27, if i recall well "A LOT" less.
During tests they had surely tried different set-ups, so the car they had been runnig at AUS/MAL (no matter what set-ups used) lacked the same amount of downforce, right?

My point is no matter what are the other teams' upgrades, find more and more downforce on the W04 and can't see why both drivers should be write off the title

If the development of the car is good it is a real chance. [-o<

[Ferraripilot]

After pre-season tests, Hamilton said W04 had less downforce than MP4-27, if i recall well "A LOT" less.

Red Bull said after Malaysia that too much downforce can be a problem for these Pirelli tyres. The W04 may have less downforce than some of the competition but ironically this could make it closer to the optimum zone in which to benefit more from the tyres.

Dr. Marko is simply not qualified to make such an assessment. I believe he stated at some point that RB9 has the aero to be a second quicker than others but they had the tone down the aero for the tires. This is complete hogwash IMo. Red Bull have a geometry issue which is the reason for their tire usage IMO. Lotus are running a very very similar car by design and thus aero yet Lotus have proved superior tire management, specifically due to their suspension is my guess as they are seeing greater pace speed quite often yet they aren't eating tires. Mercedes I believe are seeing benefit from these tires with their suspension system as well. Merc's aero is reportedly being upgraded for this next event so one must ask if superior aero were linked to extreme tire deg than why would any team upgrade their aero.

Quote me on this later, but I believe the Fric system Merc and Lotus to an extent are running is able to maintain a more even tire temperature, a smaller window of temperatures minus so much variation if you will. Variants and spikes in tire temp are I believe what are causing RB9s tire issues, if one could call it an issue I suppose. This is the only explanation I can fathom that would cause their compound to fall apart in chunks as RB are claiming. Temporary displacement of operating temp and these tires simply won't work that way.

[ringo]

I think Marko has some validty. Obviously his thoughts aren't his own. He is voicing, though vaguely, what is said among the team. I donn't think he is spouting rubbish. He can have a point.
In the same way you can't put a street tyre with a certain load range and speed index on a 200 mph super car. I think it is quite possible redbull's car may have too much downforce to have reasonable life out of the pirellis.

[Ferraripilot]

I think Marko has some validty. Obviously his thoughts aren't his own. He is voicing, though vaguely, what is said among the team. I donn't think he is spouting rubbish. He can have a point.
In the same way you can't put a street tyre with a certain load range and speed index on a 200 mph super car. I think it is quite possible redbull's car may have too much downforce to have reasonable life out of the pirellis.

I could possibly see it is one of the factors but certainly not a key factor, it simply doesn't make sense even via napkin levels of reasoning. Everyone has the same tires, and -I could be famously wrong- but I cannot see any 'silver bullet' innovation which would allow RB9 to be half a second+ quicker than anyone else. W04, E21, F138 all seem to be at a similar level (within half a second of one another) meaning it is probable that their front and rear downforce levels are within 15-20 points of one another yet -especially Lotus- others aren't complaining to such an extravagant level as Red Bull nor are they having to be quite as mindful. Looking forward to this weekend.

[Coefficient]

I think Marko has some validty. Obviously his thoughts aren't his own. He is voicing, though vaguely, what is said among the team. I donn't think he is spouting rubbish. He can have a point.
In the same way you can't put a street tyre with a certain load range and speed index on a 200 mph super car. I think it is quite possible redbull's car may have too much downforce to have reasonable life out of the pirellis.

I could possibly see it is one of the factors but certainly not a key factor, it simply doesn't make sense even via napkin levels of reasoning. Everyone has the same tires, and -I could be famously wrong- but I cannot see any 'silver bullet' innovation which would allow RB9 to be half a second+ quicker than anyone else. W04, E21, F138 all seem to be at a similar level (within half a second of one another) meaning it is probable that their front and rear downforce levels are within 15-20 points of one another yet -especially Lotus- others aren't complaining to such an extravagant level as Red Bull nor are they having to be quite as mindful. Looking forward to this weekend.

Who cares what Marko says. Red Bull always sulk when the situation is not ideally suited to them. What Marko says may be true but that just means the car has not been correctly conceived for the the requirements of the current season. Does this mean the RB9 is not the best car? That is open to interpretation but if we see RB9 fade away this year due to tyre issues I will be of the opinion that it was not the best car for this years technical demands.

[aral]

Who cares what Marko says. Red Bull always sulk when the situation is not ideally suited to them. What Marko says may be true but that just means the car has not been correctly conceived for the the requirements of the current season. Does this mean the RB9 is not the best car? That is open to interpretation but if we see RB9 fade away this year due to tyre issues I will be of the opinion that it was not the best car for this years technical demands.

I would prefer to listen to Marko, as he has far more knowledge of F1, than a lot here. Apart from that, is this not a Merc W04 thread?

[wesley123]

I can really believe that what Marko says is true. Too much df can be too much for the tires to handle.(take for example the exploding tires on the Nissans in Road atlanta 1992, or ask Audi on their R15.)

I do believe that this is a slight problem for the Red Bull. Red Bull have been running surprisingly low AoA on their wings, which lets me believe that the Red Bull is indeed capable of running downforce levels that is too much for the tires to handle.

but I cannot see any 'silver bullet' innovation which would allow RB9 to be half a second+ quicker than anyone else.

Yet they pretty much are.

W04, E21, F138 all seem to be at a similar level (within half a second of one another)

Really?

meaning it is probable that their front and rear downforce levels are within 15-20 points of one another yet -especially Lotus-

How the hell do you get those numbers?

others aren't complaining to such an extravagant level as Red Bull nor are they having to be quite as mindful. Looking forward to this weekend.

Because they do not have similair levels of df.

[turbof1]

There's a saying that more downforce increases tyre wear, but less downforce makes it even worse. Decreasing the downforce decreases grip and makes the car more prone to sliding. More downforce is more about underdriving the car.

[wesley123]

indeed, but that goes to a certain point. At some point there goes too much force through the tires, which can either be due too downforce, weight, or soemthing else.

[raymondu999]

There's a saying that more downforce increases tyre wear, but less downforce makes it even worse. Decreasing the downforce decreases grip and makes the car more prone to sliding. More downforce is more about underdriving the car.

More downforce DECREASES tyre wear no matter what. You slide less, have less slip - the tyres like that, and the rubber stays on the tyre better. You grain less, too.

But what more downforce does is pump energy into the tyres. You deflect more in heavy cornering, you corner quicker, you put the power down earlier, brake later/harder - all things that put more energy into the tyres. Even in the straights the tyre deforms more as there is more downforce trying to "flatten" the tyres - think of trying to flatten a toilet roll by using your hand as a downforce "source" and rolling it along a surface - and the constant flattening/inflating of the tyres as it rotates through the flattening means the tyre gets it all around. This energy manifests itself as heat - and hence, thermal degradation.

In Melbourne the Red Bull had no problems with wear - it was completing the same stint lengths that the Ferrari was doing - but it had problems ending the stints with good corner pace. But you have to wonder, in a way - if this was truly the case (excessive downforce overheating the tyres) why did they overheat in cold Melbourne but not in hot Sepang? It could be that some other trick is at play, other than overheating. Which brings to mind the comments about Melbourne not helping the Bulls put their tyres in the optimum window.

[ForMuLaOne]

The Problem is that Red Bull gains most of the laptime compared to other teams in high speed and mid speed corners. They have lots of downforce, but driving faster increases tyre loads no matter what. So THIS is what they mean with their statement.

[raymondu999]

Aye. Also not to be forgotten is that James Allison did also say Kimi only broke rear traction twice in the whole of the race in Melbourne. In effect - Kimi was a master of *just* under driving the car in the traction stakes.