JPM's NASCAR Revue

[pRo]

Look at F-150s.

Funny you should mention that. We were just talking about that yesterday. With a friend from US I might add. Those are generally useless over here. You can't even park one legally. It won't fit in the parking spaces on streets and you can't get into parking halls with that. Basically you can just drive around and go back home. You also have to stay clear of smaller streets or you'll just end up blocking the traffic at a narrow spot.

So looking at that from here, it actually is junk. Does it make the car any worse in US? Hell no. I bet it's great for what it's designed for.

And just for the record. I didn't start the conversation and I didn't draw the conclusions. My american friend did. In his own words, "I cannot believe how useless those are here."

Again. I'm not saying that's a bad car. But it doesn't do well here. Quite the same what you said about Aygo, though kinda in reverse. I can only imagine that it must be kinda sucky over there for the reasons you mentioned. I don't believe it makes it any worse over here, nor do I think of you as a snobby who disrespects non US cars. They are just built for different purposes on different markets. Sometimes the world is quite different around the globe.

I just said the overall consensus is that American cars are junk, poorly designed and archaic. Which is a snobby mentality towards another brand of car just because it's not a BMW, Porsche, or any other nice European car.

FWIW, I rate BMW quite low. I don't think they are that nice. I'm not really interested in them at all. And again, it has nothing to do with the fact that they are european.

So yeah, I was rude about it because I'm tired of the way people talk about US made cars. Always talking down about them gets old.

My point is that disagreeing about Z06 being the best for everyone isn't necessarily talking it down. There has to be a #2 and it still doesn't mean that it's bad in any way. No matter where it's made. There has been reasonable comments mentioned about why it's not the best for some areas. Reasons that sound perfectly normal to me. If gas prices or insurances doesn't make it interesting in some areas, it doesn't make the car itself any worse, does it? I don't think anyone said it sucks, did they?

[Reca]

Well Ray, I sincerely hope you get over the unemployment situation and find a job soon. One company I worked for twenty years decided to downsize and I found myself out of a job. I know how it feels, and it hurts for a very long time.
I have lived in both Europe and North America, and have owned cars as opposite as an Austin Healey Sprite to a Lincoln MK VII. The things is, in their respective elements each shine, but suck at others. In Europe there are uncountable tight streets and cobblestones, while in USA, wide open roads are the norm. So what happens is that a car optimized for one continent looks like crap out of it's element. And people form incorrect assumptions, they usually don't get to experience the car in it's true element.
The Corvette has strengths and weaknesses, where in Europe those defecits really make a differences. The fuel mileage, the huge V-8, other factors make the Corvette very unnactractive in a place with high gas prices and high costing licencing fees, but in the USA that kind of stuff doesn't exist.
Each environment requires a different solution. If I won the lottery and lived in Europe, a Ferrari F430 might be my choice. But in the USA a Corvette would be an adequate response.

I “grab” this post (hoping Dave doesn’t mind ) because I agree with every single word and Dave said it way better than I ever could, at the two sides of the ocean there are very different conditions with completely different requirements hence different cars needed to satisfy them. No point in further discuss the matter for me.

[West]

Yeah he had a fiery crash... he didn't seem to mind; look at his non-chalant interview afterwards. I think if somebody stepped up to him after the race he'd whoop his @$$

[Ray]

I think you are right. He was kinda like 'yeah so?'. But had Ryan Newman came over right afterwards, I think there would have been dome fisticuffs. Probably would have gotten the crew involved too. That would have been a mess. Are you guys excited to see him next year as I am? I know most of you aren't NASCAR fans, but I for one am terribly excited to see how he does.

[DaveKillens]

I'm very, very excited at the prospect of watching Montoya race in NASCAR. Yes, I wish he was still in F1, it just has to be accepted. And in NASCAR, they enjoy a very long season, with a race almost each weekend. So he will race a lot, and I will be able to enjoy watching him race.
Each new racing season brings interesting and exciting possibilities. Having Montoya racing in stock cars is definitely one thing I am looking forward to.

[Carlos]

Nascar will be very interesting next season -- New rules -- new entries -- aren't chin spliters and spoliers coming to Nascar? -- Toyota will enter?
JPM moving up to the top series? My fantasy -- along with a relationship with a supermodel -- is that JV will drive -- Ron Fellows often runs Watkins Glen -- he's a road racer -- he has often qualified well considering --

[AeroGT3]

The Z06 gets 26 miles per gallon. In a car that's faster in every respect than an F430. It cost a 1/3 of the rest of cars of it's performance caliber, it has an 'archaic', to some, pushrod V-8 that gives all European powerplants a run for thier money, and with a set of heads and a MILD cam they have pushed almost 700 hp. Try that with a Ferrari, for that matter try changing the oil. Or you can pay someone a couple hundred bucks to do so every three thopusand miles. It will do 0 to 175 in fifth gear from a standstill, laps the Nurburgring in less time than a Carrera GT. It's a steal, it looks great, outperforms cars three and four times it's price, and yet all we ever hear is about it's design, or the headlights, or whatever. It's better than most of what they drive and they won't admit it. As for the bodywork on SUV's and such, I kinda agree. But asinine crash regualations mean that it has to be this way. Some of them I quite like, if you can't tell I'm a Chevy fan. I believe there is no better internal combustion engine than the Chevy 350.

I am rooting for JPM all the way. The guy has a good head on his shoulders, isn't arrogant and expects to gain respect and win alot of races at the start, and has great personality. I hope he does great in the future and I will be watching!

Dont get me worng i think the Z06 is a great car preformance wise but its not realy the end all of what a car should be. Its interior isnt all that nice it also lacks the quality of the euro cars

As far as the 350 being a great power plant well its ok but there are better desings out there this coming form a long line of chevy mecahics.

First off, Ray you put it very well. There isn't a single european engine that will outperform the LS7. I am a huge BMW fan, but there's not a single BMW engine with the power, efficiency, torque, and low weight of the LS-series motors. They are vastly superior to any roadgoing engine.

I love the rebuttals to the Z06 - Z06 proponents accurately decribe that its performance and cost are better than any other car in the world. What is the first thing opponents mention? The interior. A 500 HP car that runs the 'ring in under 8 minutes and they complain about interior quality and headlights?

Give me a break. The quality is impeccable. It has Porsche reliability on the racetrack and I know because I do track days frequently. I see "quality" machines like MY BMW breaking down and having issues a LOT more often than any Corvette. The vette has a forged crankshaft that I've actually seen withhold over 700 HP in extended track use. I've seen vette's run in 116 degree heat and never have their engine or transmission oil temps even start to creep too high. Their mechanical reliability and quality is stunning, especially given their price.

Saying the Corvette has a poor interiot is like saying the Prius is a crappy hybrid becuase it doesn't have enough straight line speed. THE INTERIOR IS NOT THE VETT'ES POINT!!!

Just wanted to vent.

Secondly, those of you who knock American SUV's give me hope that typical Americans aren't the only ones who are totally ignorant of their international neighbors . . .

America is not like any country in Europe. We don't have high gas taxes, we don't have small roads, we don't have tiny families, we don't live in 2 bedroom, 5 square meter apartments. Most families I know have a detatched home with at least 4-5 bedrooms. Most have a boat or a jetski or dirtbikes or something that gets towed. Most go camping and most people do a lot of work on their yards and homes, etc. Basically, the American lifestyle and quality of living NEED SUV's and trucks. When you live in a tiny flat in Munich, an SUV is pointless. But I live 15 miles from a lake, 10 miles from an off roading park and 90 miles from a racetrack. I live in a detached home with a garage and a yard. An SUV would be a good choice for me and it is for most Americans.

It's easy for you all to say they're needless or ugly because in your country there wouldn't be any need for them. But please keep in mind that not every country is like yours!

Oh and one more comment about the Corvette - to those of you who have choice words regarding the lack of engineering that goes into American cars: go look up nurburgring lap times. I think you'll be amused that the Corvette outlaps nearly every single European sports car out there - even those double its price. For those of you further still who claim that's because of the power only, look at the Z06 vs F430. The F430 has the same level of power output, and accelerates at nearly the same rate as the Vette. So the vette's superior handling must be what casues the Vette to outlap it . . . keep in mind of the course the Ferrari runs on rcomps and the vette uses shitty run flats . . .

[Ciro Pabón]

I am sure most of you will be fascinated by this interview. I read it in a mysterious newsletter, named "The Bogotá's Onion", dated December 2007 (I find this a little suspicious: this could be a joke). I am unable to locate the link again, but I managed to copy some sections of the main article. Let me tell you I can't subscribe to the point of view of the author :

...managed to lead a few laps, even if JPM had some problems with the setup of his new number 42 car. Juan said he is happy with the input received from european engineers to devise a vastly more efficient and ellegant NASCAR vehicle. Notice the attention to tiny details the new car has. The 175 cc engine, fueled by two solar-wind-rechargeable AAAA cells, developed in Formula One, is able to provide more horsepower than the rock-bottom, solid and reliable, iron forged, 30 liter engines NASCAR is using these days. The vehicle is almost twice the size of a typical european compact car and the bodywork was designed by Armani and Chanel.

(Note of the editor: NASCAR engines are based on the old and proven Stephenson's steam cycle and are widely used in drag racing and in the tanker ship and construction industries: they typically overpower european engines, even with the disadvantage they still use gasoline. In countries classified as "under-developable" by the UN (Africa, Asia, South America and Oceania) they have been adapted to run on natural gas and ethanol by the natives).

[img::]http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l131/ ... rgizer.jpg[/img]

The so-called "interview" continues:

Talking about the family side, JPM told us he is happy living in America: "The broad views and magnificent landscapes allow me to stare to the horizon and avoid the irrecuperable eye damage that you can get by the current trends in american SUVs. Some clear days I am able to distinguish, between the mist, the far end of the backyard where my kids play in the solitude of the woods with their 300 cubic inches ATVs", declared the charming and gutsy colombian driver.

Juan shows us that his taste hasn't changed
[img::]http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l131/ ... d-0378.jpg[/img]

Juan finishes with this:

"The racing is similar. I am still getting used to have only 4 persons per pit, to avoid exhausting the mechanics". (Note of the editor: the NASCAR mechanics have to put up with 220 pit stops, average per race). He continues: "...however, the friendly stewards give you a hand, exactly in the same way I saw they helped the older drivers in F1.". When asked about the people, he answered: "To tell you the truth, I wasn't able to discern if I was at the Hadmunsen Pork Chops Atlantic Town 4000 or at Hoçkënbùrgstrâssëríng. The T-shirt fans in the trailer park are the same and the level of knowledge is roughly the same." Juan smiles whe he says: "I was really, really touched by the big flag that the "Cloroxsi" displayed while they supported our team". Note of the editor: Cloroxsi are more or less equivalent to italian "tifoxsi", their amicable chant being "We will, we will clear you".

Stewards discuss number 42 car setup while the crowd shows its support
[img::]http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l131/ ... j-0158.jpg[/img]

Well, there you go, those of you that complained about stereotypes! Finally, an independent and reliable source on JPM's NASCAR news.

[AeroGT3]

Notice the attention to tiny details the new car has. The 175 cc engine, fueled by two solar-wind-rechargeable AAAA cells, developed in Formula One, is able to provide more horsepower than the rock-bottom, solid and reliable, iron forged, 30 liter engines NASCAR is using these days. The vehicle is almost twice the size of a typical european compact car and the bodywork was designed by Armani and Chanel.

BWA HAHAHHAHAHAHA! Thanks for posting that, so funny!

[West]

I always am reminded of this article (from corvetteforums.com) when I read anything negative of the Z06:

Out of line? About what specifically? That Ferrari is primarily a marketing machine? Get real? OK, since you suggested it, here’s a dose of reality for you. In the early 1990s, Ferrari sought to replace their legendary F40 supercar. The supposed replacement, the F50, had a small problem. The car could not defeat the F40. Ferrari realized that once the press got wind of this the negative publicity would undermine the Ferrari marketing machine. So Ferrari did something that to this day I still struggle to believe. Ferrari leased every one of the F50s. The official reason was that they did not want speculators driving up the price of the car on the open market. The lie would later be exposed when the Enzo was released and no such program was deemed necessary though Enzo prices have long since sailed through the speculative level. So what's so important about leasing a car? Well, when you lease a car the person driving it does not actually own the car. As such the car owner, Ferrari in this case, can dictate the terms of the lease. Prominently spelled out in the lease was a set of clauses which said in effect that under no circumstances, NONE, was the car to be allowed to undergo instrumented testing by any automotive journalist.

They were very specific about it.

Ferrari threatened any lessee with removal from the Ferrari loyalty program for the purchase of future supercars if they failed to comply. As Car and Driver editor Aaron Robinson recently recounted the event in his 2003 test of the Enzo, “the threat of denied perks, such as factory tours and first crack at future cars, was enough to elicit whimpers from even the most steel-spined business titans. We did manage to test an F50, but that's another story.”

Let me say this again because it bears repeating. Ferrari produced a car which did not live up to expectations and then concocted a scheme to hide this fact. They then enforced it with threats to make sure they were not discovered. What they did was both unconscionable and disgraceful. I will never forget it. It was at that specific point that I realized that the emperor had no clothes and apparently never did.

The unmasking continued unabated when Motor Trend took Ferrari’s F355 to the test track against the then new C5 Vette. The Vette effectively matched the Ferrari’s acceleration clear through the 1-mile mark.

Motor Trend then tested a C5 Z06 against the 360 Modena. The Z06 put a 19-car lead on the Modena through the standing mile. That was the “slow” 385 hp Z06 in 2001. 2002 would bring an upgraded 405hp Z06.

The carefully orchestrated Ferrari marketing machine continues to this day. ProDrive went racing at Le Mans with a 550 Maranello. You would think Ferrari would be proud. Instead, admitting that the Maranello was ill-suited to road racing, Ferrari took an official position that the car "was not a factory Ferrari effort" and basically should not be judged as a reflection on Ferrari. Again, this bears repeating. That Ferrari felt the need to take an official position like this still staggers me. Poor ProDrive. With Ferrari's stance it was difficult to drum up support and so ProDrive has now switched to racing Aston Martins at Le Mans. As Cavallino reported, Care Racing approached Ferrari head honcho Luca di Montezemolo about taking a chance with the Maranello against the Vettes at Le Mans given that ProDrive had actually managed to win a race or two against the Vette. Montezemolo said no because he was specifically convinced that the Maranello would never ever really be able to contest the Corvette.

The most recent Ferrari marketing hype? They introduced journalists to the F430 at their Fiorano test track. They then carefully orchestrated the acceleration tests in one direction. Downhill. To their credit almost every publication weighed in on that fact as well as the questionable test results.

Reliability? You should spend some time over at Ferrarichat.com. One of the most amusing posts I have ever seen on that site in recent memory was made by one of their longtime members. He had just gone for a spirited run in his Maranello. A beautiful car to be sure. He pulled up to a light and was just about to drive off when there was a terrible clunk from the left rear. He got out to discover something interesting. The left rear wheel had fallen off the car. It seems Ferrari had issued a TSB about the wheel bolts causing just that kind of failure but the message had missed this driver. Bummer .

Quality of service? One of the longest and most passionate threads I ever saw on Ferrarichat was a multi-page petition to create an organized protest to Ferrari North America for better sales and service which most Ferrari owners on the site found absolutely appalling.

Reality check. Let’s look at the F430 and the C6 Z06. Aluminum frames. Check for both. Carbon fiber body parts? Check for both. Extensive use of magnesium and titanium? Check for both. Dry sump oiling? Check for both. Then some key differences start showing up. F430 horsepower 483. Z06 505 hp. Torque for the F430 is 343 lb-ft. while torque for the Z06 is a crushing 470 lb.-ft. in relation. Tires on the F430 are 225/285 F/R as opposed to the steamroller 275/325 for the upcoming Z06. The most crucial determinant of performance, power to weight ratio is not in the Ferrari’s favor. Shockingly, the C6 Z06 has a power to weight ratio that betters that of the Viper SRT-10, Ford GT and Lamborghini’s Murcielago.

The F430 will have its work cut out for it and those who do not think the two cars are readily comparable are in for an unpleasant surprise.

I’ll say it again. Ferrari is a marketing organization that happens to build cars. Some very nice cars to be sure but they are wholly outclassed on many levels by all too many competitors of which the Vette is one. Ferrari survives because there are enough people out there who literally buy into the hype. Don’t ask any hard questions or look at any facts and you too can be led along by the nose just fine.

[AeroGT3]

West, that was an outstanding post.

Whoever wrote that "article" very elegantly highlighted the real truths about Ferrari. Their reliability is indeed poor - the average Ferrari sees what - 5,000 miles a year? And yet their are more issues on Ferraris than on any other car. I too am on ferrarichat and reliability is a huge issue. I know 3 people who've tracked their Ferraris. All had *some* sort of issues. I cannot say the same of the Vette. It's flawless.

Porsche and Corvette are the dominant makes at every track day I've attended. Both are outstanding cars. Ferraris are beautiful and the driving experience is visceral, but the relibility and performance is almost always trumped by its competitors. Marketing hides this well though . . .

Most Ferrari owners buy into the image and the status. I see very, very few "drivers' drivers" who track, autocross, or really put their F-cars through their paces!

[Tom]

I have no doubt Ferrari are piles of dog food, but vettes are by no means flawless. Porsche and corvs are successful at track days because there are so bloody many of them and they have big engines, put real drivers in these cars and you'd be amazed which were faster. my car club championship was descided (final round) last week between a guy in a 1400cc Nova, with driveshaft which are not likely to see another corner without tearing to bits, and a guy in a 900cc mini who had driven it to the event, painstakingly dismantled it for the previouse half hour to get it nice and light (and save all valuables). They are both amazing drivers, although I would suggest Nova man has a cholestral porblem, but the mini took the crown by seconds.
No doubt it was down to the driver, in a smaller less powerful car he beat the Nova on the fast field events and the tight twisty tarmac events, and even on the gravel at the sawmill.

That may not surprise some of you, but consider it in the larger picture. Said Nova had far more 'horsepower,' torque, better acceleration, higher topspeed and a larger engine, yet it was still thrashed by a car twice its age. You can quote as many figures as you like but face it, they're the same bloody car and for the same money you can buy something practical (Volvo), or make something fun (Lotus) and have real money left over to fix any rare and irritating problems.

[Ray]

Novas are hardly considered a 'road racing' car. The mini was probably real close to half it's weight. It also probably handles alot better too. Apples to oranges comparison there.

West thanks for that post. Really good info.

AeroGT3 thanks for your take on this debate as well. You completely summed up what I was trying to say in one post.

[pRo]

something fun (Lotus)

NOW we're getting somewhere.

[Ray]

Just curious if anyone else thinks Fez on That 70's show reminds you of JPM. For some odd reason every time I watch that show it reminds me of him.