Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2013

[Rikhart]

Personally I think redbull should seriously consider replacing vettel. He´s destroying the hierarchy in the team, and thats very bad news. No one driver can be above the team, ever. Horner just got turned into a talking dummy...

[xDama]

Personally I think redbull should seriously consider replacing vettel. He´s destroying the hierarchy in the team, and thats very bad news. No one driver can be above the team, ever. Horner just got turned into a talking dummy...

Are you serious? I mean, really? The solution to all of this b/s is replacing Webber, with either a designated 2nd driver (like with Ferrari/Lotus) or with someone that has an equal status, but is also capable of challenging Vettel (something that Webber simply can't). RB replacing Vettel would probably be the dumbest thing they could do.

And he ignored a team-order, so he could win the race... He IGNORED a bloody, dumb team-order... Wow, big deal. It's not like he's firing people at will, or taking decisions about the entire team. He just said '--- this, I'm faster, I'm winning'.

I even wonder how this entire scenario would be, if Raikkonen would've done this. Everyone would probably love it, and call him a 'character'.

[Juzh]

I'm surprised that it took Seb so long to retaliate on Mark's lack of team order discipline. Webber did it 2010 in Turkey and created the opportunity for the crash, he went on with it at Silverstone 2011 and crowned it with his attack in Brazil 2012. So he effectively did it for each of the last three years. Why would Seb feel that he had to stick to team orders when his team mate always disregards them?

Mateschitz has been openly critical about team orders forever. I had expected Mark Webber to be given some sanctions after he went against team order in Turkey 2010, but he wasn't. At least I would have expected his race engineer to be fired for the conspiracy. Even that did not happen. So that has set the tune by Mateschitz effectively telling the drivers they could simply disregard Horner's instructions.

Horner's admission that he has no control over his driver's is just confirming the obvious. It changes nothing at all for the way the team operates. Seb would be a fool if he expects Mark to give him support. So why will that make a difference in the future? They have simply confirmed to the public what is obviously internally known within the team for a long time. I do not believe that this is a disadvantage for Seb or Red Bull that the thing has now gone public. At least everybody knows where he stands. Mark will not be able to hide behind a smoke screen.

And Seb is obviously confident he can fight on his own strength, and rightly so. I expect him to beat Mark in the WDC like he has always done. Mark should accept that he has to simply generate number one performance consistently if he wants to beat Seb. In my view he has not even been close to that level for a long time. Except for a part of the season in 2010 where he profited from technical failures on Seb's car he never was a match.

What the Sepang episode clearly showed was the role that Horner plays within the team. He is simply there to be a mouthpiece for the people who run that team. In my view those are Mateschitz who decides the driver policies and Newey who runs the parent company Red Bull Technologies. The team is simply an outsourced resource which allows Newey to focus on the things he does best. When he thinks that one driver will best support his development strategy he has no problems to give him superior support as seen in Silverstone 2010. Horner will just provide the fall guy for such actions. He can bath in the glory when Red Bull wins and he is supposed to eat the shite when the public does not like the things that happen.

So much win in this post whiteblue. Can't resist to +1.

Personally I think redbull should seriously consider replacing vettel. He´s destroying the hierarchy in the team, and thats very bad news. No one driver can be above the team, ever. Horner just got turned into a talking dummy...

You're delusional. If alonso/webber/raikkonen did this they'd be aplauded for it like freedom fighters who turned on their evil masters. Just look at alonso's front wing debacle in malaysia. Almost no one said it was the wrong thing to stay out, or even mention the fast it was entirely alonso's fault in the first place when he hit vettel. When vettel does it, its the end of the world. get real.

[Juzh]

/double post.

[danyduc]

I think this entire situation is blown out of proportion, in a gigantic matter.

I'm not really a Vettel-fan, but I have an enormous amount of respect for the 'fella'. If you come to look at it, he's right to take the win from Webber in Malaysia. I mean, in Brazil '12 Vettel could have lost the WDC because of his action's. How was that helping 'the team'? The team didn't even enforce team orders on Webber, because they respected the entire 'situation' between the two drivers. But it's a gamble that could have cost them a WDC. And it's not even the first time...

The only thing that bothers me about Malaysia is the fact that Webber probably wasn't expecting the overtake, hence wasn't driving at 100%. But even then, Vettel probably would have overtaken him. And jezus christ, last year Vettel won with a handfull of points, in 2010 it was the same situation. How on earth could you expect Vettel to hand in 7 points, knowing that he could well be in exactly the same situation as in 2010/2012?

There, i think you got it exactly right.
Furthermore, how a team can put down team orders at the second race of the season is beyond reason.

[Phil]

I'm surprised that it took Seb so long to retaliate on Mark's lack of team order discipline. Webber did it 2010 in Turkey and created the opportunity for the crash, he went on with it at Silverstone 2011 and crowned it with his attack in Brazil 2012. So he effectively did it for each of the last three years. Why would Seb feel that he had to stick to team orders when his team mate always disregards them?

I'm not sure if my mind on the events of Turkey 2010 are playing tricks on me, but as far as I remember, team orders were officially disallowed, so there was no such official 'obvious' order that Webber should yield. Vettel attempted the pass and for whatever reason, turned too early into Webber, hitting him. There was at least a car length width that Webber left. Post race, it was revealed that Webber had gone into fuel saving mode in the lap Vettel attempted the pass, Vettel had one lap longer, which is how he managed to close the gap that quickly.

It could have very well been, that the team ordered Webber to turn down his engine to subtly swap the cars without raising the suspicion of team-order or what would have been considered foul-play by the public at that time.

When I look at the team and both Webber and Vettel - what disturbs me the most, is how vocal the team has been on the outside that both drivers receive equality - yet, it has always seemed that favoritism is a larger factor within the team than what we are led to believe. The event when the team took the 'new' wing off Webbers car and gave it to Vettel (after Vettels broke) just highlighted this even more, as well as the body language leading up to that race and later Webbers comments when he won the race ("not bad for a number 2").

So, whatever was going on - even back then, it seemed Webber felt a certain unfairness within the team. How much is down to Webber being emotional or sensitive - or indeed favoritism within the team is hard to argue. I wouldn't be surprised however if these events have been responsible and led up to the the overall team insubordination we have going on now or in some of the races last year.

Hypothetically, if we just assume there is some truth to the picture that Vettel is receiving better treatment and/or perhaps newer upgrades earlier - or the more talented people being on his side of the garage - and Webber finds himself in a rare position where he can challenge him for a win, like in Silverstone 2011, who wouldn't go for it? At that point of the championship - Vettel already had a huge lead and they were battling for 2nd and 3rd - a mere 3 points, but a lot of prestige. Besides, Webber was in a much tighter WDC race over 2nd, 3rd and 4th position, so those 3 points would have been quite nice.

Fast forward to Brazil 2012 and a lot of history between the drivers and the team and one might be able to relate to the fact that Webber might feel he's helped his team mate more than enough. Perhaps not by obeying team orders, but perhaps by playing the underdog too many times or feeling that he is not only battling his team-mate, but also a large part of the team.

Now, this isn't a post to picture Vettel as the bad golden boy and Webber the just hero or anything - but perhaps to highlight that the team has made some big mistakes when it came down to managing their drivers. Or have they? After 3 seasons of winning the WDC - perhaps that's what it cost. If Webber has indeed not been given equal support (in any sense of the word), then one could feel for him. It also raises the question why he would continue to stay in the team if it is really that bad. Or maybe it comes down to his belief, that after Vettel already winning 3 championships, he might get a more level-playing-field and thus might have a chance - besides, who likes to leave the winning car on the grid?

One way or the other - I am convinced if both drivers had been handled better, then perhaps both of them and especially Webber, might be a lot better team mates - or at least to the point, that they would follow team orders more closely without feeling they are being forced to give an advantage to their teammate who in their eyes hasn't earned it.

It's an especially tricky situation - now at the beginning of this years season, with exceptionally sensitive tyres, putting faith into the teams decision and strategy planing is a big deal.

[Jonnycraig]

Overall i think vettel is not speaking the truth as it is.
He shouldnt say Mark didnt deserve the win. I a would agree with him if Mark had full power and was told to keep going.
However Mark was told to slow down and turn down his engine.
If the team orderes one driver to slow down, how can the other ignore a similar order? That is not fair.

Orders should only be ignored if both cars were not giving special instructions to slow their cars. Ie under normal racing circumstances.

Both Sportbild & AMuS have claimed this past week that Webber was in fuel trouble and having to run a lean engine setting in the final stint ala Hamilton, whereas Vettel was fine for fuel and was able to run richer and on a brand new set of mediums he had saved for himself in qualifying. This would put RB in the same situation as Mercedes with a driver having to cruise and hold position. Some would suggest the difference being RB's number 1 was behind whereas Mercedes' number 1 was infront.

With regards the notion of Webber 'deserving' the win, if true that Webber had used more fuel than Vettel and with 2 'undercuts', and also Vettel going onto the dry tyre too early still only found himself side by side with Vettel after the final stops then in my opinion its hard to argue that he did 'deserve' the win. The Malaysian GP was 56 laps long, not 44, and in the final stint, Webber was lapping slower than Hamilton behind him who was in full fuel save mode.

[WhiteBlue]

All the rationalizing will not detract from the fact that Vettel had ample reason to disregard the team order and that Webber has established the principle that you do not have to obey it at Red Bull. Whatever drove him to take things into his own hands, he decided first to do it. So now he should not be surprised his team mate does just the same.

The facts are that the two drivers will race each other in the future and I am confident that we will not see a departure from the usual outcome. IMO Vettel will win much more poles and races. His real competitors for the championship are well known. They are Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton. Webber has only an outside chance to become champion and only if he significantly raises his performance. If you ask the bookies or the man on the street Webber has a 5% chance and Vettel a 50% chance. I think that is quite realistic and reflects their past performance.

I will apologise on this board to Mark Webber and his fans if he beats Vettel this year in the standings but I'm pretty confident it will not be necessary.

[ringo]

Both Sportbild & AMuS have claimed this past week that Webber was in fuel trouble and having to run a lean engine setting in the final stint ala Hamilton, whereas Vettel was fine for fuel and was able to run richer and on a brand new set of mediums he had saved for himself in qualifying. This would put RB in the same situation as Mercedes with a driver having to cruise and hold position. Some would suggest the difference being RB's number 1 was behind whereas Mercedes' number 1 was infront.

With regards the notion of Webber 'deserving' the win, if true that Webber had used more fuel than Vettel and with 2 'undercuts', and also Vettel going onto the dry tyre too early still only found himself side by side with Vettel after the final stops then in my opinion its hard to argue that he did 'deserve' the win. The Malaysian GP was 56 laps long, not 44, and in the final stint, Webber was lapping slower than Hamilton behind him who was in full fuel save mode.

There needs to be evidence of this from the team before the rest of your post after that statement will hold any weight.
Webber didn't mention fuel at all neither did the team principal or Newey. If you have a quote or two then yeah you could have a plausible case.
But overall Vettel needs to accept that what he did was not fair. Webber had both hands tied behind his back with instructions from the team. No 'racer' wants to win like that. I don't know who told him he's now the do or die "racer" he's styling himself as, but i have less respect for a driver who wants to win in such a sleezy fashion. There's no challenge in winning like that, and in fact he's less deserving for such a shameful move.

What i feel will happen in China this weekend is that the team might try their hand at a Webber as #1 scenario. I feel Vettel is the Anakin skywalker of F1. He's now damaged goods, redbull created a monster, they may just discard him for 2013 and put webber on the top pedestal.

[WhiteBlue]

Impressive attempt at humour, ringo!

[Joie de vivre]

Webber ran out of fuel

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/189789/1/f ... nalty.html

[Cam]

I've got a set of bathroom scales that can measure 3kg of fuel perfectly. $5.00. Amazing they could F that up again.

[Bomber_Pilot]

Just a bit of a rumour, but according to the commentators at the WEC at Silverstone, Webber signed a five year contract with Porsche for the LMP1.

[Joie de vivre]

I've read that too just few minutes ago. Too bad he's leaving F1. Good luck Mark, wherever you will be.

[Hail22]

I've read that too just few minutes ago. Too bad he's leaving F1. Good luck Mark, wherever you will be.

Source: http://www.kicker.de/news/formel1/start ... rsche.html

Translation:

His disappointing departure for China Grand Prix in Shanghai was less than three hours ago, came from England early on Sunday afternoon, new reports on the future of Red Bull driver Mark Webber (37): The Australian, British sources say, a five-year contract signed by Porsche.

The Swabian sports car manufacturer Audi to occur from 2014 to intercompany fight on for the win in the WEC Long Distance World Championships and the legendary 24 Hours of Le Mans. An Audi spokesman would not confirm the execution of the long awaited transfer conceded, however, that "it is in this direction" could.

Webber has experience in the sports prototypes: He drove before his entry into Formula 1 in the years 1998 and 1999 for Mercedes.

However Andrew Bensons reply: