Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and numbers

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
mnmracer
mnmracer
-26
Joined: 17 Sep 2011, 23:41

Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and numbers

Post

What happened to Felipe Massa late last year, only the Brazilian knows, but he seems to have regained his form, and since the United States Grand Prix in Austin, has been outqualifying Fernando Alonso. Although both drivers take it lightly, it is no doubt a boost of convidence for Felipe and topping the time sheets this morning, he seems to be on form to perhaps do what no other driver has yet done: outqualify Fernando Alonso as a team mate 5 consecutive times.

Let's have a look how today's champions and top drivers have faired in regards to being consecutively outqualified by their team mate.

Lewis Hamilton: outqualified 2 times in a row
Of the 'big three', Lewis has the best score in terms of (not) being consecutively outqualified by team mates. All his team mates up to this year -Fernando Alonso, Heikki Kovallainen and Jenson Button- have at some point outqualified Hamilton two races in a row, but never more.

Sebastian Vettel: outqualified 4 times in a row
The driver with the 3rd most amount of pole position in history, 4 races in a row, from the 2010 Spanish Grand Prix to the 2010 Canadian Grand Prix, qualifying specialist Mark Webber had his number in qualifying, but never more.

Fernando Alonso: outqualified 4 times in a row
Having had qualifying aces as Jarno Trulli and Lewis Hamilton as team mates, Fernando still has not been outqualified more than 4 races in a row. From the 2003 European Grand Prix to the 2003 German Grand Prix, Jarno Trulli had his number in qualifying, a feat equaled by Lewis Hamilton from the 2007 Canadian Grand Prix to the 2007 French Grand Prix, and now Felipe Massa, from the 2012 United States Grand Prix. Will this be different tomorrow?

Kimi Räikkönen: outqualified 4 & 5 times in a row
Having taken a 3 year sabbatical from Formula One, I decided to look at Kimi's score before and after his return.
In his first career, it was Felipe Massa who outqualified him 4 times in a row, from the 2008 Malaysian Grand Prix to the 2008 Monaco Grand Prix.
Returning to Formula One in 2012, team mate Romain Grosjean set a faster time on Saturday 5 times in a row: from the 2012 Bahrain Grand Prix to the 2012 European Grand Prix.

Mark Webber: outqualified 3 & 9 times in a row
Mark Webber's case in qualifying is a curious one. Known in the paddock as a qualifying ace, prior to 2009 he outqualified his team mates in 75% of all the races. In that time, no one has outqualified him more than 3 times in a row, which Christian Klien did from the 2004 Monaco Grand Prix to the 2004 Canadian Grand Prix.
When he teamed up with Sebastian Vettel, things quickly changed. In their 4 years as team mates, Sebastian Vettel has outqualified Mark Webber in 70% of the cases. Twice, from the 2010 Singapore Grand Prix to the 2011 Spanish Grand Prix, and from the 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix to the 2011 Brazilian Grand Prix, did Sebastian Vettel outqualify Mark Webber 9 times in a row. Even if you leave aside 2011, which some consider to be an off-year for Webber, Vettel was the front-starting Red Bull 8 times from the 2009 Australian Grand Prix to the 2009 British Grand Prix.

Jenson Button: outqualified 9 times in a row
Having had his qualifying duels evened out pretty well from 2003-2009, Lewis Hamilton took his number in qualifying in their times as team mates. From the 2012 Australian Grand Prix to th 2012 German Grand Prix, Lewis Hamilton was 9 times in a row the fastest McLaren on Saturday.

Felipe Massa: outqualified 12 & 21 times in a row
Many speculate the reasons of Felipe's severe two year performance dip, but he seems to be on his way back. In the context of this statistic, Felipe Massa is a curious case. On one hand, he was outqualified 21 times in a row by Fernando Alonso, from the 2011 Indian Grand Prix to the 2012 Abu Dhabu Grand Prix, and even before his dip, teaming up in 2006 with Michael Schumacher, he started behind his team-mate 12 consecutive times. Of all the drivers on the grid, no one has had more world championships in the next garage: 10 (7x Schumacher, 1x Räikkönen, 2x Alonso).
But on the flip-side, Felipe is responsible for having the number of both Räikkönen and (shared) Alonso most times consecutively. Will he take Alonso's number for his own this weekend?

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

nicely done
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

mx_tifoso
mx_tifoso
0
Joined: 30 Nov 2006, 05:01
Location: North America

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

Qualy doesn't matter as much anymore, I'll use Alonso as a reference;
"Qualifying this year is less important. It has been losing importance year after year. There were years when it was vital to start from the first row or from pole position, but since Pirelli arrived qualifying has become less and less important.

In the first two races of the season Kimi [Raikkonen] won pretty easily in Australia starting from seventh and anyone could have won in Malaysia. But there is a tendency for qualifying to become less important."
Forum guide: read before posting

"You do it, then it's done." - Kimi Räikkönen

Por las buenas soy amigo, por las malas soy campeón.

JimClarkFan
JimClarkFan
27
Joined: 18 Mar 2012, 23:31

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

mx_tifoso wrote:Qualy doesn't matter as much anymore, I'll use Alonso as a reference;
"Qualifying this year is less important. It has been losing importance year after year. There were years when it was vital to start from the first row or from pole position, but since Pirelli arrived qualifying has become less and less important.

In the first two races of the season Kimi [Raikkonen] won pretty easily in Australia starting from seventh and anyone could have won in Malaysia. But there is a tendency for qualifying to become less important."
To the detriment of the sport, no point wrecking your tyres on one all out lap only to have to pit more, or at an awkward time in the race

Straggler
Straggler
0
Joined: 30 Mar 2013, 22:54

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

mnmracer, that's really interesting angle of comparing the drivers, but i think it will be even better if there is "% of times outqualified by teammate" statistic too. Because in some case you can be outqualified 5 consecutive times, and these to be the only 5 times that you have every been outqualified by teammate in your entire racing carrier, which its lets say 200 qualifications. Which is astonishing record despite the 5 consecutive times that your teammate outqualified you.

mnmracer
mnmracer
-26
Joined: 17 Sep 2011, 23:41

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

Just took on this stat because it was a current event.

I'm not doing all the stats for all the drivers, but let's start with these for their overall career score and median* season score (excluding 2013):

Nico Rosberg outqualified his team-mates in 72% of all races; median season score: 78%
Sebastian Vettel outqualified his team-mates in 72% of all races; median season score: 77%.
Fernando Alonso outqualified his team-mates in 74% of all races; median season score: 74%.
Lewis Hamilton outqualified his team-mates in 72% of all races; median season score: 72%.
Mark Webber outqualified his team-mates in 53% of all races; median season score: 74%.
Kimi Räikkonen outqualified his team-mates in 60% of all races; median season score: 67%.
Jenson Button outqualified his team-mates in 43% of all races; median season score: 43%.
Felipe Massa outqualified his team-mates in 38% of all races; median season score: 35%.

The scores for the 'big team mate battles' over the last years:
Alonso beat Massa in 82% of all races; median score of 79%.
Hamilton beat Button in 76% of all races; median score of 74%.
Vettel beat Webber in 72% of all races; median score of 74%.


*median means in the middle. It takes out extremes, and is the result in the dead center.
For instance, the average of 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+50 is 16.
The median of 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+50 is 4.5.

BTW: kind of funny how Jenson 'balance' Button's average and median scores are in perfect balance ^_^ (in detail: 42.8% and 43.3%)
Last edited by mnmracer on 13 Apr 2013, 18:15, edited 1 time in total.

JimClarkFan
JimClarkFan
27
Joined: 18 Mar 2012, 23:31

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

mnmracer wrote: The scores for the 'big team mate battles' over the last years:
Alonso beat Massa in 82% of all races; median score of 79%.
Hamilton beat Button in 75% of all races; median score of 74%.
Vettel beat Webber in 72% of all races; median score of 74%.
That's an odd result.
Are you sure you calculated that correctly?

Gerhard Berger
Gerhard Berger
-1
Joined: 20 Sep 2010, 11:17

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

You're not fooling anyone mnracer. We all know your agenda.

User avatar
SilverArrow10
2
Joined: 10 Mar 2013, 20:46

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

Well Massa couldn't pull it off. shame really could have given him a massive boost to do what other Alonso teammates haven't been able to do.
"Leave it to Lewis Hamilton to ruin Redbull's day" - Martin Brundle

"Ok Lewis, Its Hammertime!!" - Peter Bonnington

"Fresh tires, 15 laps. What do you think Lewis Hamilton is going to do?" - Martin Brundle

mnmracer
mnmracer
-26
Joined: 17 Sep 2011, 23:41

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

JimClarkFan wrote:
mnmracer wrote: The scores for the 'big team mate battles' over the last years:
Alonso beat Massa in 82% of all races; median score of 79%.
Hamilton beat Button in 75% of all races; median score of 74%.
Vettel beat Webber in 72% of all races; median score of 74%.
That's an odd result.
Are you sure you calculated that correctly?
Well-rounded it's actually 76% (my bad) but here's how:

2010- Hamilton (14) : Button (5)
2011- Hamilton (13) : Button (6)
2012- Hamilton (17) : Button (3)
In 58 races- Hamilton (44) : Button (14)
44/58 = 75.8%

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

JimClarkFan wrote:
mnmracer wrote: The scores for the 'big team mate battles' over the last years:
Alonso beat Massa in 82% of all races; median score of 79%.
Hamilton beat Button in 75% of all races; median score of 74%.
Vettel beat Webber in 72% of all races; median score of 74%.
That's an odd result.
Are you sure you calculated that correctly?
While mnmracer has since clarified his position and error - it's still a possible result. 72, 74, 79 produce a median 74 and average 75. 73, 74, 78. 74, 74, 77. Etc etc
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

Kinda fun to mess about graphing this:
Image

It's kinda fun that each upward segment is a logarithmic curve, and they appear all together to form a logarithmic curve too. Looks like Hamilton is currently settling into a 75% success rate.

Btw mnmracer, hamilton has been beaten 3 times consecutively, twice – once by Kovalinen in 2009, and once in 2010 by Button.

myurr
myurr
9
Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 21:58

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

mnmracer wrote: Well-rounded it's actually 76% (my bad) but here's how:

2010- Hamilton (14) : Button (5)
2011- Hamilton (13) : Button (6)
2012- Hamilton (17) : Button (3)
In 58 races- Hamilton (44) : Button (14)
44/58 = 75.8%
Interesting that Button is now leading the team and has out qualified and out raced (in my opinion) Perez 3 : 0. Makes you wonder about how much more pace is in that McLaren and if the drivers are getting the most from it.

JimClarkFan
JimClarkFan
27
Joined: 18 Mar 2012, 23:31

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

mnmracer wrote:
JimClarkFan wrote:
mnmracer wrote: The scores for the 'big team mate battles' over the last years:
Alonso beat Massa in 82% of all races; median score of 79%.
Hamilton beat Button in 75% of all races; median score of 74%.
Vettel beat Webber in 72% of all races; median score of 74%.
That's an odd result.
Are you sure you calculated that correctly?
Well-rounded it's actually 76% (my bad) but here's how:

2010- Hamilton (14) : Button (5)
2011- Hamilton (13) : Button (6)
2012- Hamilton (17) : Button (3)
In 58 races- Hamilton (44) : Button (14)
44/58 = 75.8%
I apologise, you're correct.

User avatar
ringo
231
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and num

Post

I assume mechanical issues and gearbox penalties and such were excluded from the numbers?
For Sure!!