Overtaking - 2013 debate

[komninosm]

Mod Edit - This was split from the Barcelona race thread. Also see previous overtaking debate http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... f=1&t=7493
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I prefered F1 tires round 1990s.
You had proper choices, tires A B C D, A was slowest, but could last longer, all the way to D, the qualifying tire, fast but run out of rubber fast. Add refueling too and that's the F1 I want. I understand others disagree.

[Cocles]

I prefered F1 tires round 1990s.
You had proper choices, tires A B C D, A was slowest, but could last longer, all the way to D, the qualifying tire, fast but run out of rubber fast. Add refueling too and that's the F1 I want. I understand others disagree.

I completely agree. Whenever refueling is mentioned though, it seems half the fans work for the department of health and safety posting an endless stream of pit fires. Of cousre-- how many people were actually hurt in these pit fires? Those fires looked dramatic, but that was about it. Plus, let's face it, there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Refueling could have been made safer without throwing it out altogether.

[korzeniow]

NO to refueling!!!!

[Glyn]

I prefered F1 tires round 1990s.
You had proper choices, tires A B C D, A was slowest, but could last longer, all the way to D, the qualifying tire, fast but run out of rubber fast. Add refueling too and that's the F1 I want. I understand others disagree.

I completely agree. Whenever refueling is mentioned though, it seems half the fans work for the department of health and safety posting an endless stream of pit fires. Of cousre-- how many people were actually hurt in these pit fires? Those fires looked dramatic, but that was about it. Plus, let's face it, there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Refueling could have been made safer without throwing it out altogether.

Even if they came up with a system that made the pit-stops take a little longer.

Re-fuelling isn't dangerous when we go to the petrol station. So what's the difference with f1?

[SiLo]

NO to refueling!!!!

http://i.imgur.com/tUrZb.png

I hope you're being facetious. That's the introduction of DRS and Pirellotery tyres

[korzeniow]

NO to refueling!!!!

http://i.imgur.com/tUrZb.png

I hope you're being facetious. That's the introduction of DRS and Pirellotery tyres

Not in 2010, the raise of the overtakes number is solely thanks to ban on refueling in 2010. DRS and Pierlli came in 2011

[turbof1]

NO to refueling!!!!

http://i.imgur.com/tUrZb.png

I hope you're being facetious. That's the introduction of DRS and Pirellotery tyres

Take a look at 2010. Overtaking already doubled up compared to the year before, when refueling still was allowed. And in that year drs and sh*telly tyres weren't around. Yes with those 2 added in, overtaking doubled up again in 2011, but how many of those were "drive pass and smile for the picture"?

[1158]

Don't forget 2010 also had the introduction of the F duct (precursor to DRS) and 2 more teams. (3 new teams but Toyota left).

Are leaders overtaking back markers counted as overtakes? I wouldn't think so but with FIA you never know.

Even if those do not count I'm sure 4 more cars on track contributed some number of overtakes.

[beelsebob]

Don't forget 2010 also had the introduction of the F duct (precursor to DRS) and 2 more teams. (3 new teams but Toyota left).

Are leaders overtaking back markers counted as overtakes? I wouldn't think so but with FIA you never know.

Even if those do not count I'm sure 4 more cars on track contributed some number of overtakes.

The big difference with drs was that the f-duct wasn't an artificical overtaking tool: you could use it anywhere, anytime (aka everybody full throttle on eau rouge with a stalled rear wing and only one hand on the steering wheel).

Indeed, the F-duct actually hindered overtaking – it meant the cars were more likely to be reaching their rev limiter.

[FW17]

As you can see there is nothing significant on track, pitstop position change was significant.

Interesting that you chose to ignore 2010, 2011 and 2012

2010

Overtakes:11

Overtaking Driver Overtaken Driver
Lap Position
2 18 Vitaly Petrov - Karun Chandhok
3 15 Kamui Kobayashi - Jarno Trulli
3 17 Vitaly Petrov - Timo Glock
3 16 Vitaly Petrov - Jarno Trulli
7 20 Sébastien Buemi - Lucas di Grassi
8 19 Sébastien Buemi - Karun Chandhok
12 18 Sébastien Buemi - Timo Glock
13 17 Sébastien Buemi - Jarno Trulli
17 6 Michael Schumacher - Jenson Button
23 11 Jaime Alguersuari - Nico Hülkenberg
49 15 Nico Rosberg - Nico Hülkenberg

note - 8 of these involved the 3 new teams

[Cam]

I would trade all the drs and Pirelli overtakes a year for a handful of outstanding hard fought and earned overtakes that We can all regale for years. Quality over quantity, every time.

[Richard]

Personally, I think the problem is that there is less and less uncertainty as the sport's professionalism and technology matures. There are no missed gear changes, no overheating engines, no failed gearboxes, cars don't slide off track. In the golden days we had 30-40% attrition, which to my mind indicates that there were an awful lot of variables to grapple with. there was bound to be more overtaking if there were so many variables and high odds of getting it wrong.

Unfortunately what we are seeing is natural consequence of evolution, the clock can't be turned back. As it happens, there was an interesting article in the Guardian this week about this http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... -your-luck

[illario]

i don't know how much down force would cars need to loose so that they can follow each other even in the corners and whether that would lead to "very slow cars".
I'm thinking that strict regulations on front wings would "lock" the field in low down force front wings, thus resulting in more possibilities for close racing, maybe more importantly "late braking", "mid corner throttle" etc would help in raising the number of variables which would offer more room for different styles of driving.( I'm aware of some changes for next year, regarding front nose, but i don't know whether front wing was considered more seriously, sorry if i'm totally out of sync)

[tim]

I think it stands to reason that the big jump in overtakes is down to the new teams being so slow even if you excluded being lapped. Also every time a car went off in the first corner but got back on track that's an over take and probably another over take as the repass the back markers. Drs probably has had a small affect but look at Alonso last race no drs and still he was difficult to pass.
What I would like to see is no drs refuelling at pit stops and a different tyre philosophy perhaps one compound per race but reasonably high deg but don't completely drop off.

[krisfx]

My personal opinion is based on what they wanted to do and try to create more downforce under the car than over it using venturi tunnels etc.


Another one I would do is make the drs rule more like DTM, you can use it within two seconds(would have to change to one) of the car in front but you can only use it once per lap. That would give the driver more strategy to play with, I'd then also remove the silly one move defending rule and then really only penalise if it got a bit too daft and drivers were being squeezed off track.


Apologies if any of this has already been covered.