"Limit of the car" and "Limit of the tyres"

[ankitshah]

We keep hearing Red Bull complaining that the drivers need to drive to the limit of the tyres and not the limit of the car. Somehow that feels like a ridiculous statement. In a series like F1 the cornering forces on the car are always limited by the tyre friction and the drivers will always try to drive at the limit to go fastest.

Now I agree that the limit depends on the tyre condition (temperature, composition, degradation at the instant and wear) and that might be decided by the cars characteristics of how it uses the tyre's contact patch and how it heats up the tyres. However isn't it the teams that design virtually every component except the tyre? And shouldn't they be accountable for how the car uses a tyre?

How can RBR claim to have the fastest car while being slower on track over sixty laps. A jet powered car might be faster than a roadcar but if it has to run on roadcar tyres, they will burst. So basically what i mean is that RBR messed up the car design and are now trying to shift the blame to the pirellis.

[Anon123]

They didn't neccessarily mess up their car design, you could argue it's their fault but perhaps if the teams had a better idea of how the tyre would react in all sorts of conditions then maybe it would be easier for them. Pirelli have to take some of the blame especially when they said they are aiming for 2-3 stops a race.

[Pierce89]

They didn't neccessarily mess up their car design, you could argue it's their fault but perhaps if the teams had a better idea of how the tyre would react in all sorts of conditions then maybe it would be easier for them. Pirelli have to take some of the blame especially when they said they are aiming for 2-3 stops a race.

Well, to be fair, the other races have been 2-3 stops. Catalunya has always been very aggressive on the tires.

[ankitshah]

IIRC Barcelona 2011 was a 4 stopper. And frankly the timing of the races this year has been within a couple of seconds of the ones last year.

[f1316]

Red bull have previously benefitted from having a car that heats its tyres quickly; ferrari, for example were hindered by having the opposite.

In 2011 when ferrari couldn't heat the hards, were they driving to the car's limit? It could definitely go faster when it eventually did get the temps.

Same is true now only in reverse. All these cars are evolutions of 2009's to some extent and the same characteristics prevail but now the tyre favours different teams than they used to. But they've always favoured someone.

One thing's for sure: they didn't change that 2011 hard...

[NowyszRacing6]

We keep hearing Red Bull complaining that the drivers need to drive to the limit of the tyres and not the limit of the car. Somehow that feels like a ridiculous statement. In a series like F1 the cornering forces on the car are always limited by the tyre friction and the drivers will always try to drive at the limit to go fastest.

What red bull is talking about is the way "driving to the limit of the tires" means that you can't actually be at the limit of the friction of the tires for most of the race. When the car is at it's limit, it uses all the friction of the tires, and usually has a little bit of sliding going on, which puts a lot more heat/wear into them, so they degrade too soon for their overall strategy to work.

[raymondu999]

In terms of defining the argument, to be clear - I think red bull means the limit of tyre life, rather than tyre grip. The limits of tyre grip and the limits of the car are, of course - inevitably linked.

[ankitshah]

In terms of defining the argument, to be clear - I think red bull means the limit of tyre life, rather than tyre grip. The limits of tyre grip and the limits of the car are, of course - inevitably linked.

Indeed. However looking at the other aspect. Ferrari on the same tyres were faster than them in China and Barca. So I guess in a way Ferrari has balanced out the tyre management perfectly allowing the drivers to push and still maintain the tyres in optimal range. Better understanding of the tyre/car interaction one might say.

In aircrafts too one might have an incredible manoeuvrable aircraft but finally the pilot might not be confident flying the plane at the limits due to poor control design. So in a way the pilot is hamstrung by the limits of the controls rather than the limits of the plane, but such is life and finally the buck stops with the constructor.

[Jersey Tom]

However isn't it the teams that design virtually every component except the tyre? And shouldn't they be accountable for how the car uses a tyre?

Eh, to some degree. But in the grand scheme of things the race team really has little overall influence in the performance and behavior of the tire. They can influence maybe 10-20%, the rest is inherent from the tire supplier.

However looking at the other aspect. Ferrari on the same tyres were faster than them in China and Barca. So I guess in a way Ferrari has balanced out the tyre management perfectly allowing the drivers to push and still maintain the tyres in optimal range. Better understanding of the tyre/car interaction one might say.

Or equally likely - they've gotten lucky and stumbled into something that works. They may not know why, or why they're different / better than any other team. We'll have to see if their performance winds up being exceptional through the balance of the season.

[Miguel]

I seriously think RB's argument that they can't use the downforce they have because of the tires is, well, bull. They were 12 km/h slower than Ferrari in qualifying. If their car really had so much more downforce than anything else, surely they could dial down the wing, have the same total downforce as Ferrari and then beat them in top speed easily, right?

Or they could drive relatively slower around the corners, sliding less, but having good laptimes and good tire life, right? What makes us think that Ferrari can't use a much more aggressive suspension and wing set up to achieve a faster qualy time? Surely, though, RB realises that if the tires were really durable, the car that was going to beat them badly is Mercedes, right?

[ankitshah]

However isn't it the teams that design virtually every component except the tyre? And shouldn't they be accountable for how the car uses a tyre?

Eh, to some degree. But in the grand scheme of things the race team really has little overall influence in the performance and behavior of the tire. They can influence maybe 10-20%, the rest is inherent from the tire supplier.

Hey JT. What do you think about the kind of data that is available to the teams regarding the tyres over the summer. Can you give an insight into what kind of stuff a tyre-maker can give to chassis-makers for design. Sim models, compound info etc. The teams surely can't be shooting in the dark

[prince]

Andrea Stella - "Fernando, do not push, do not push"
Fernando - "I am not pushing"

Button - "Are we racing them?" . AAh, so they are choosing if to race or not.
His engineer - "Yes we are".

Rocky to Seb - "NOW, you can use up the tires" - So, until then he wasn't pushing.

Lewis - "I can't drive any slower". Hmm, due to tires, he is being asked to drive slower and NOT TO RACE.

This is not F1, no way. If the car is being pushed to 110% and then the tires are wearing the way they are, that is understandable. It is absolutely right when Seb says, "We are not racing to the limit of car, but to the limit of tires". Refuelling ban, tire supplier war ban and what not were brought in picture to cut the cost. Does anyone imagine the dollars the teams are burning to understand the tires?

The designers are burning their asses to get a car that is fast, WITHOUT KNOWING HOW TIRES ARE going to play, only to see on race day that the fastest machinery that they have created isn't fastest because they misunderstood the fact that their machinery is not going to be raced with rubber, but on cheese. Instead of MECHANICAL/AUTOMOBILE ENGINEERING dominating F1, it is the cheese factory that is dominating. And those who say "IT IS THE SAME FOR EVERYONE", please stay away from replying to my comment. Take the engine out of the car and ask all drivers to push, that is same for everyone right?

[Jersey Tom]

However isn't it the teams that design virtually every component except the tyre? And shouldn't they be accountable for how the car uses a tyre?

Eh, to some degree. But in the grand scheme of things the race team really has little overall influence in the performance and behavior of the tire. They can influence maybe 10-20%, the rest is inherent from the tire supplier.

Hey JT. What do you think about the kind of data that is available to the teams regarding the tyres over the summer. Can you give an insight into what kind of stuff a tyre-maker can give to chassis-makers for design. Sim models, compound info etc. The teams surely can't be shooting in the dark

A tire supplier can supply a lot of data, be it force and moment data or otherwise. That's not to say that the supplier does that. Varies series to series, supplier to supplier. Some single suppliers are perfectly content to let teams shoot in the dark. Others supply quite a bit. I can't speak to what level Pirelli supplies to F1 at the moment.

[ForzaFer]

Andrea Stella - "Fernando, do not push, do not push"
Fernando - "I am not pushing"

This has nothing to do with discussion above. Andrea Stella told this to Fernando in the closing stages of the China race when he was 12 secs in front of Kimi and still he put fastest lap which was unnecessary at the point. And Fernando just replied he was not pushing which meant the car was so fast it had even more pace. Andrea Stella will for sure warn Fernando if we are in Bridgestone era.(durable tyres)

[raymondu999]

Eh, to some degree. But in the grand scheme of things the race team really has little overall influence in the performance and behavior of the tire. They can influence maybe 10-20%, the rest is inherent from the tire supplier

Well that couldn't be such a small thing if that 10-20 accounts for Mercedes vs Lotus?

I seriously think RB's argument that they can't use the downforce they have because of the tires is, well, bull. They were 12 km/h slower than Ferrari in qualifying. If their car really had so much more downforce than anything else, surely they could dial down the wing, have the same total downforce as Ferrari and then beat them in top speed easily, right?

I don't believe it's that simple. You have to consider the RBR vs Ferrari's aero maps over speed. It could be that the efficiency of the Red Bull's downforce, which means it gets more downforce for equal drag, means if they shed "equal drag" - they lose "more downforce." Meaning dropping downforce hurts the laptime far more.

Surely, though, RB realises that if the tires were really durable, the car that was going to beat them badly is Mercedes, right?

Not necessarily. We don't know how much each cars have been biased for race vs quali. Merc has a bigger disparity between the two, which could indicate their car is less geared for the race.