"Limit of the car" and "Limit of the tyres"

[Jonnycraig]

Surely, though, RB realises that if the tires were really durable, the car that was going to beat them badly is Mercedes, right?

See qualifying for Melbourne & Malaysia before RB started sacrificing one lap pace for the long game.

[Neno]

Surely, though, RB realises that if the tires were really durable, the car that was going to beat them badly is Mercedes, right?

See qualifying for Melbourne & Malaysia before RB started sacrificing one lap pace for the long game.

Qualifying is not race, and it will NEVER be! Deal with it already. It's like you comparing sprint with marathon...it's easier too marathon player become sprinter, then reverse! Specialy when marathon player can make sneakers manangment, and preserve his footwear unlike sprinter like Mercedes who can after every hundred meter throw his footwear...

[sucof]

Andrea Stella - "Fernando, do not push, do not push"
Fernando - "I am not pushing"

Button - "Are we racing them?" . AAh, so they are choosing if to race or not.
His engineer - "Yes we are".

Rocky to Seb - "NOW, you can use up the tires" - So, until then he wasn't pushing.

Lewis - "I can't drive any slower". Hmm, due to tires, he is being asked to drive slower and NOT TO RACE.

This is not F1, no way. If the car is being pushed to 110% and then the tires are wearing the way they are, that is understandable. It is absolutely right when Seb says, "We are not racing to the limit of car, but to the limit of tires". Refuelling ban, tire supplier war ban and what not were brought in picture to cut the cost. Does anyone imagine the dollars the teams are burning to understand the tires?

The designers are burning their asses to get a car that is fast, WITHOUT KNOWING HOW TIRES ARE going to play, only to see on race day that the fastest machinery that they have created isn't fastest because they misunderstood the fact that their machinery is not going to be raced with rubber, but on cheese. Instead of MECHANICAL/AUTOMOBILE ENGINEERING dominating F1, it is the cheese factory that is dominating. And those who say "IT IS THE SAME FOR EVERYONE", please stay away from replying to my comment. Take the engine out of the car and ask all drivers to push, that is same for everyone right?

I firmly believe that tire was always a limiting factor in the past, and that no team, no car and no driver was able to drive on the limit during a race, but only just for a few rounds.
I have read in articles that engineers saying this was the same 30 years ago too. As Formula 1 was and is always about limiting factors, what the car manufacturers have to overcome. Everybody could drive faster in a corner if double diffuser would have not been banned. Now drivers has to go slower there...
I see the only difference now is that RedBull has a disadvantage, because these tires does not fit their car, but that is their mistake, since everyone has the same tires and some are winning and some are not, and now they are the "unlucky" ones. And sadly the media assists them, as they are great manipulating the media. And as Pirelli has a pretty weak marketing department, as they are putting out self conflicting comments all the time. They should have been only saying all the time consistently that the tires are the same for everybody, and there are teams who are able to go faster, so it is not the tires fault.
Teams will eventually learn how to handle these tires.

[langwadt]

Andrea Stella - "Fernando, do not push, do not push"
Fernando - "I am not pushing"

Button - "Are we racing them?" . AAh, so they are choosing if to race or not.
His engineer - "Yes we are".

Rocky to Seb - "NOW, you can use up the tires" - So, until then he wasn't pushing.

Lewis - "I can't drive any slower". Hmm, due to tires, he is being asked to drive slower and NOT TO RACE.

This is not F1, no way. If the car is being pushed to 110% and then the tires are wearing the way they are, that is understandable. It is absolutely right when Seb says, "We are not racing to the limit of car, but to the limit of tires". Refuelling ban, tire supplier war ban and what not were brought in picture to cut the cost. Does anyone imagine the dollars the teams are burning to understand the tires?

The designers are burning their asses to get a car that is fast, WITHOUT KNOWING HOW TIRES ARE going to play, only to see on race day that the fastest machinery that they have created isn't fastest because they misunderstood the fact that their machinery is not going to be raced with rubber, but on cheese. Instead of MECHANICAL/AUTOMOBILE ENGINEERING dominating F1, it is the cheese factory that is dominating. And those who say "IT IS THE SAME FOR EVERYONE", please stay away from replying to my comment. Take the engine out of the car and ask all drivers to push, that is same for everyone right?

I firmly believe that tire was always a limiting factor in the past, and that no team, no car and no driver was able to drive on the limit during a race, but only just for a few rounds.
I have read in articles that engineers saying this was the same 30 years ago too. As Formula 1 was and is always about limiting factors, what the car manufacturers have to overcome. Everybody could drive faster in a corner if double diffuser would have not been banned. Now drivers has to go slower there...
I see the only difference now is that RedBull has a disadvantage, because these tires does not fit their car, but that is their mistake, since everyone has the same tires and some are winning and some are not, and now they are the "unlucky" ones. And sadly the media assists them, as they are great manipulating the media. And as Pirelli has a pretty weak marketing department, as they are putting out self conflicting comments all the time. They should have been only saying all the time consistently that the tires are the same for everybody, and there are teams who are able to go faster, so it is not the tires fault.
Teams will eventually learn how to handle these tires.

There's always limits but ideally those limits should be somewhat balanced so that some may use less tires,
some may have more power, some more down-force, straight-line speed etc. and depending on the track
you'll have an idea who will might a slight advantage

But the tires stick out like sore thumb as a problem for all teams (to a different degree), the limits of the car,
driver etc. isn't being pushed it is only tires

that the tires don't last very long isn't so much the problem, the problem is that they are not fast while they last
don't think any one would complain if driving like a maniac and doing four stops would be slightly faster than nursing
the tires and doing two

[Anon123]

Perfect scenario for me would be the drivers can push quite hard, 2-3 stop races and no "cliff".

[Miguel]

I seriously think RB's argument that they can't use the downforce they have because of the tires is, well, bull. They were 12 km/h slower than Ferrari in qualifying. If their car really had so much more downforce than anything else, surely they could dial down the wing, have the same total downforce as Ferrari and then beat them in top speed easily, right?

I don't believe it's that simple. You have to consider the RBR vs Ferrari's aero maps over speed. It could be that the efficiency of the Red Bull's downforce, which means it gets more downforce for equal drag, means if they shed "equal drag" - they lose "more downforce." Meaning dropping downforce hurts the laptime far more.

I'm pretty sure F1 cars go slow enough so that Cd doesn't change very appreciably with the typical speed change. Speed in the V8 era is always less than 0.3 Mach. Furthermore, RB being faster than Ferrari in rear-limited tracks hints possibly better mechanical grip, which would hide areodynamic deficit.

Not necessarily. We don't know how much each cars have been biased for race vs quali. Merc has a bigger disparity between the two, which could indicate their car is less geared for the race.

I completely agree with that. I believe, though, this applies to all the other teams. It's just disconcerting that Pirelli has decided to dance around tires, construction and compounds in the middle of the season. This looks like rule re-writing, and if Lotus is hurt, I expect them to complain.

Does anyone here remember how the MP4-21 was not very fast at the end of 2006, and as soon as they put Bridgestone tires they became faster than the WCC R26?

[Hail22]

I may have picked the wrong topic to post this but Common sense has won the day with the FIA not allowing the change of the compound of the current 2013 spec Pirelli tyres, they can only changed the internal carcass construction to make it less likely for adverse delamination / failure.

Source: http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/form ... 15607.html

I too agree with the source saying that it is ridiculous to change tire specifications mid season considering all teams agreed in September with this years current compound setup.

Lets see how it all ends!

[Gettingonabit]

Source: http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/form ... 15607.html

Good news imo, although not a fan of the current situation, to change things mid season is unfair to the teams that have got on top of the game.

[marcush.]

My view is RedBulls car was never exceptionally good on tyre management but their package was so good in terms of car potential it did not really matter -pole a few quick laps and then nursing the car to the finish -
This now is no more possible as the tyres are more of a factor as the other teams have reeled in RBs advantage and RedBull cannot short fuel anymore as they did plus they have to push the whole time as they cannot build a gap ,plus others are just as quick or quicker in qualy.

Mind you RedBull rarely went well coming from midfield or lower than second row starts

[godlameroso]

The metal belt in the tire conducts more heat than the Kevlar one they will be replacing for Canada, this will lead to lower thermal degradation, but the plan is to keep the compounds very aggressive as far as their grip is concerned. I don't know if it will lower the pit stops dramatically but it will give a slightly bigger operating window.

[lebesset]

The metal belt in the tire conducts more heat than the Kevlar one they will be replacing for Canada, this will lead to lower thermal degradation, but the plan is to keep the compounds very aggressive as far as their grip is concerned. I don't know if it will lower the pit stops dramatically but it will give a slightly bigger operating window.

where do you get their statement that they will go back to a kevlar belt in canada ? I haven't seen any statement from pirelli regarding their changes since the FIA ruling
it doesn't seem to have had much press but the steel belt strengthened the shoulder allowing higher forces , that , coupled with the the increased puncture resistance could account for the new sort of delamination as the cars no longer have to come to a halt before it happens , formerly the tread came off in chunks at the low speed if the carcase stood up long enough

[Hail22]

http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=co ... Itemid=157

Small changes made to Pirelli's tires for Canada and onwards to further prevent delamination.

[raymondu999]

At the heart of it - Pirelli have shot themselves in both feet. They will either be lambasted for wrongly trying to change the pecking order (as per their earlier announcement) or be lambasted for disguising tyre changes under the heading of delaminations.

[Hail22]

At the heart of it - Pirelli have shot themselves in both feet. They will either be lambasted for wrongly trying to change the pecking order (as per their earlier announcement) or be lambasted for disguising tyre changes under the heading of delaminations.

Even more so they cannot disguise or hide changes as the FIA will more than likely demand the new tires and data to compare with the first 5 Grand Prixs and pre-season testing to gauge whether major changes have been made.

[raymondu999]

What the FiA cannot argue against is when these safety changes require construction changes, which incidentally change the pecking order.