Porsche back in Le Mans!

[WhiteBlue]

Another thing that Hatz said in the Eurosport interview was about the hybrid system. They are going to do a high power version, but that is what factory squads are all expected to do.

He also spoke about the way Porsche will go WEC racing. There will not be an existing team that will get works support. They will have their own factory team and concentrate everything under the same roof much as Ferrari does in F1. I think that is a crucial decision. Porsche is the biggest race car manufacturer world wide and they should operate their own team. It is good to see that they look towards Ferrari in terms of who they compare themselves with. Currently the LMP1 division at Porsche has 200 people working exclusively on that project. There are more to come when they build up the operating team. Then they will have the Porsche cup and the GT projects. The total sporting division at Porsche should soon get similar dimensions to the gestione sportiva at Maranello.

[marcush.]

Porsche has hired big time recently for the lmp project..there is separate buildings already build for the lmp1 project ..

[Tommy Cookers]

Isn´t it feasible to create a v4 with tweaked crankpins to cancel out the vibrations-?
Honda VFR1200 engine has split crankpins -28° offset.

what I had in mind was that a 180deg 'V'8 will be firing like a big straight 4
I had forgotten about the 944
and that twin clutch transmissions will give protection, and 'normal' manual transmission no longer exists at Porsche ?

the Honda has (for installation benefits) a 76deg V angle and corresponding +-14deg 'split' crankpins
identical in balance terms to a 90deg non-split crankpin engine (Japanese V twin motorcycles often use this 'split pin' arrangement)
that is each pair of pistons has suitable local countweighting of the crankshaft
giving perfect balance of primary inertia forces, but only with the 90deg V angle (or equivalent as above)
the balance obtains with one or more cylinder pairs
this VFR 1200 engine is effectively a pair of such 90deg V twins 'coupled' in phase
but however 'coupled', very uneven firing intervals are unavoidable (here 104deg 256deg)
car V4s always seem to have used 4 crank throws/4 crankpins (to make the firing intervals more even)
so may be heavier and larger

the Tecno 8 seems interesting, emulating (as did Alfa Romeo and Subaru?) the Ferrari 180 deg 'V'12 that had only 4 main bearings
the 180deg 'V'8 and 'V'6 configurations seem good for something

[ESPImperium]

Porsche has hired big time recently for the lmp project..there is separate buildings already build for the lmp1 project ..

Correct. There was a large 200,000sqft factory built at Stuttgart for the LMP1 project, the building is believed to be over 2 floors with design, super computer, simulator and management on first floor with the factory on the ground. There is a massive wind tunnel being built to the same spec as Audis one as Audi have the most advanced tunnel in Motorsport with a rolling road that can tilt +/- 10 degrees and rotate +/- 30 degrees and can pump air into the chamber at +55c and -30c at a speed of 320Km/h.

Porsche are spending an estimated €440m on their facilities over 3 years for the LMP1 project and with an annual budget of €250m for the chassis side of things.

The size of their facilities for the LMP1 project isn't really seen on the Porsche site as the facilities there to make their production cars is about 5million sqft, so dosnt really show.

This project needs to succeed for Porsche as if it dosnt, it will be a nightmare for them. Audi have 15 years experience in LMP racing now, Toyota have 2 years LMP with 10 in F1 as well, this will be tough for them to compete. Porsche need to swell in size quite quickly, but gel as quick as even to get 2 LMP cars in 2014 they need to get to a size of 450 people, at the moment they have 220 to some well placed estimates.

It will be a project that will be worth keeping an eye on. If they dont get the prestige they are after in LMP1 id expect to see them shift quite quickly to a F1 programme. However the Porsche board have given the LMP1 project till 2020 in order to give it time and the correct attention in order to success in LMP1.

By that time F1 will be ready for a new engine anyways as the V6T looks to be given a short life span as rumour has it its being given till 2020, not the 8 year life span that the V8s and even the V10s had previously. By then engines will be a I3Turbo and Super Charged 500hp engine with 400hp extra in ERS that will be constantly be working.

[Tommy Cookers]

.... By then engines will be a I3Turbo and Super Charged 500hp engine with 400hp extra in ERS that will be constantly be working.

details please !!

[ESPImperium]

.... By then engines will be a I3Turbo and Super Charged 500hp engine with 400hp extra in ERS that will be constantly be working.

details please !!

Just way technology is going i feel, probably wont happen, but when you look at road engines, more and more are coming with a I3 engines i think that F1 and LMS will go to a I3 engine with smart technologies. And i do feel that it will become the 'Global' engine then for use in everything more or less.

[xpensive]

...
Porsche are spending an estimated €440m on their facilities over 3 years for the LMP1 project and with an annual budget of €250m for the chassis side of things.
...

Porsche to spend 1200 M€ over three years on LMP1, where do you get such outrageous numbers, also something you "feel"?

Hey TC, how about a 120 deg V6, it worked before and packaging should be easier than a 180 deg?

[WhiteBlue]

.... By then engines will be a I3Turbo and Super Charged 500hp engine with 400hp extra in ERS that will be constantly be working.

I can imagine that the V6 will have a short frozen life. But the rest I think is very speculative. If they had some sense F1 regulations like LMP1 would liberate the specification with regard to the ICE and focus on the energy restriction only. It would lead to more manufacturers trying their hand in the sport. But until that happens a lot of water will run down the rivers of this world and perhaps we will see the departure of a certain Mr. BCE by natural or legal means. As it stands now F1 is not motor sport but aerodynamic sport and as such is not a serious target for Porsche. Hatz gave that impression at the Le Mans interview.

[ESPImperium]

...
Porsche are spending an estimated €440m on their facilities over 3 years for the LMP1 project and with an annual budget of €250m for the chassis side of things.
...

Porsche to spend 1200 M€ over three years on LMP1, where do you get such outrageous numbers, also something you "feel"?

Hey TC, how about a 120 deg V6, it worked before and packaging should be easier than a 180 deg?

The figures i get from sports buisness pages and magazines. Trusted and accurate sources.

As for the €440m, that is the budget for the 3 years, not €440m a year. That budget is generally spent 60% in first year, 30% in second and 10% in final year.. With a team budget of €250m a year to support and run the team. The team will come with 2 cars for the first 2 years and 3 from there after i think, so that budget will be easily eaten into and quite quickly. First 3 years will have total budget (Facilities and Season) of about €1,140 Billion for first 3 years.

[WhiteBlue]

The team will come with 2 cars for the first 2 years and 3 from there after i think, so that budget will be easily eaten into and quite quickly.

I strongly disagree with 2 cars. Audi will continue to run three cars and it is quite beneficial as we have just seen. Porsche will not attack a WEC program any less serious than Audi. I would bet money that they will have three cars.

[marcush.]

the lmp project is situated in Weissach -Flacht next to the Motorsport facilities also situated in Flacht .The new Windtunnel is part of the new buildings in weissach -Integration centre with electronics ,and testing labs along with a new design centre ...No cars produced in weissach -apart from a few mockups and very early prototypes....
Stuttgart production facility is in Zuffenhausen and around 40km from Weissach
To be clear -Weissach and Flacht are on the same site as is the PG -Porsche Prüfgelände ,the buildings are simply on ground belonging to different villages -mind you Weissach is one of the richest communities in Germany..so their Neighbors also want a piece of the cake...New Series Development centre is situated on Mönsheim ground ...as a matter of fact...but still all surrounded by one fence!quite nice there .....and I should know.


about the new windtunnel:

http://www.autogenau.de/news/autowelt/w ... artet.html

150Mill € invest there.

and as a special goody : the ultimate machine built in Zuffenhausen :

[WhiteBlue]

34.4 cc/s of gasoline, a strange number indeed, relates to 1180 kW input, 34% efficiency means 400 kW or 550 Hp. Still more the the 917 ever had in 1971.

I have checked your effciency figure and it does not add up for me. In F1 we will have 35% if we use 46 kJ/g, 448 kW and 27.8 g/s.

I believe the LMP1 rules will deliver higher efficiency of the ICEs. The are allowed unrestricted variable geometries for intake, valves, turbo deflector elements and general turbo design. I would think that would bring them at least to an efficiency of 38% if not higher.

[xpensive]

Because you confuse cc/s with g/s. Try again or leave it to the engineers WB.

[WhiteBlue]

Because you confuse cc/s with g/s. Try again or leave it to the engineers WB.

I have not even used cc/s. You don't need to be insulting.

[xpensive]

34.4 cc/s of gasoline, a strange number indeed, relates to 1180 kW input, 34% efficiency means 400 kW or 550 Hp. Still more the the 917 ever had in 1971.

I have checked your effciency figure and it does not add up for me. In F1 we will have 35% if we use 46 kJ/g, 448 kW and 27.8 g/s.
...

34.4 cc/sec equals 25.5 g/s at 0.74 density, gives 1180 kW input with 46.4 MJ/kg, 34% of that is 402 kW or 546 Hp at 0.735.

Btw WB, I agree with you on the V6 turbo thread, to question the fuel-flow regulations at this point is unfathomable and makes you wonder about the validity of certain posts over the past year or so. 2.5 Bar in 1988 was absolute in order to equal with 3.5 atmos (2.5 times 1.5 is 3.75) and yielded 680 Hp. 3.5 Bar absolute next year with 27.8 g/s is nothing but preposterous.