2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

rjsa wrote:Pretty cool:
But unrealistic. It disregards that you hear only half the frequency of the V10 and V8s, because acoustically they have two separate banks using its own respective exhaust. The V6 will run with the full frequency because both banks run into the one turbo. Even the turbo V6 of the past had two separate banks with one turbo each. Their sound is also of lower frequency.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
Blackout
1566
Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 04:12

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post


User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

The commentary on the web page confirms that they have the wrong methodology.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
Pierce89
60
Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

Extremely cool idea.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

piast9
piast9
20
Joined: 16 Mar 2010, 00:39

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

Holm86 wrote:That is not entirely correct. The sound does depend on firing order, V angles etc. But in a flat 4 engine 2 cylinders doesn't fire at the same time. In a flat 4 engine one cylinder fires every 180°. Just as an inline 4.
You're right. I was misled by nice Subaru rumble but it appears it's just due to the firing order - here's an explanation: http://www.rahul.net/ddoudna/Subaru/

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
44
Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 19:22

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

piast9 wrote:
Holm86 wrote:That is not entirely correct. The sound does depend on firing order, V angles etc. But in a flat 4 engine 2 cylinders doesn't fire at the same time. In a flat 4 engine one cylinder fires every 180°. Just as an inline 4.
You're right. I was misled by nice Subaru rumble but it appears it's just due to the firing order - here's an explanation: http://www.rahul.net/ddoudna/Subaru/
The rumble of the Subaru is because of unequal length headers introducing half order content.


An order is how frequently something occurs per revolution. So for example with an engine and a crank shaft. The crankshaft obviously rotates once per revolution.

So at 600rpm it has a frequency of (600/60) = 10Hz.
At 1200rpm it has a frequency = 20Hz.

2nd order is something that happens twice per revolution, in the case of a 4 cylinder engine this is the cylinders firing.
Firing order is usually by far the most dominant harmonic. 4th order is the 1st harmonic of 2nd, and so on.

2nd order would have a frequency of
600rpm = 600*2/60 = 20Hz
1200rpm = 1200*2/60 = 40Hz.

Half order is something that happens every 2 rotations, which corresponds to a specific cylinder. Cylinder to cylinder variation would give half order content in the sounds you hear.

http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_hel ... htm#Normal Engine Vibrations Chart



Inlet and exhaust headers (exhaust are more important for noise), are just like a musical instrument. It plays a certain note depending on it's length. With equal length headers, every pulse from firing will 'play' the same note. So you get a very tonal sound, as the combustion events are equally spaced.

Unequal length headers introduce cylinder to cylinder variation in the note played. You will still get the tone from the engine firing (2nd order), but you also get frequencies introduces of orders 0.5, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5 etc. This gives a characteristic burble.


The thing is it can get very tricky, very quickly and you can engineer noise in and out using the exhaust. Playing with phase, resonators etc. And indeed having two separate exhausts, meaning you treat each bank separately.


EDIT: Further to this, for an engine you don't hear the 1st order. 1st order noise/vibration is only heard when there is an imbalance in the crankshaft. Which would mean it would grenade itself before you could hear it.
http://www.formula1guitar.blogspot.com.es/2010/12/formula-1-bass-guitar-sound-of-future.html wrote:First of all, note how the low frequency I talked about is the same for both sounds, as the revolutions regime for both engines is essentially the same.

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:Very funny that the noise lovers down vote people telling the truth on a technical forum. Actually it is a shame.
I did that, because this...
WhiteBlue wrote:
rjsa wrote:Pretty cool:
But unrealistic. It disregards that you hear only half the frequency of the V10 and V8s, because acoustically they have two separate banks using its own respective exhaust. The V6 will run with the full frequency because both banks run into the one turbo. Even the turbo V6 of the past had two separate banks with one turbo each. Their sound is also of lower frequency.
...is utterly absurd, but I didn't feel like starting an argument with you last night.

One does not "hear only half the frequency of the V10 and V8s, because acoustically they have two separate banks using [their] own respective exhaust," because - and this is vital - one hears the sound emitted from both exhausts!

I guess Popular Mechanics hasn't had any articles about sound propagation for you to binge upon and regurgitate back to the forum as gospel.

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
44
Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 19:22

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

bhallg2k wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:Very funny that the noise lovers down vote people telling the truth on a technical forum. Actually it is a shame.
I did that, because this...
WhiteBlue wrote:
rjsa wrote:Pretty cool:
But unrealistic. It disregards that you hear only half the frequency of the V10 and V8s, because acoustically they have two separate banks using its own respective exhaust. The V6 will run with the full frequency because both banks run into the one turbo. Even the turbo V6 of the past had two separate banks with one turbo each. Their sound is also of lower frequency.
...is utterly absurd, but I didn't feel like starting an argument with you last night.

One does not "hear only half the frequency of the V10 and V8s, because acoustically they have two separate banks using [their] own respective exhaust," because - and this is vital - one hears the sound emitted from both exhausts!

I guess Popular Mechanics hasn't had any articles about sound propagation for you to binge upon and regurgitate back to the forum as gospel.
You may be hearing both exhausts, but both are producing a tone of half the frequency. And two sources of a frequency does not give the same sound as one source of double the frequency.

The musical instrument analogy works here as well.

rjsa
rjsa
51
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

xxChrisxx wrote:
You may be hearing both exhausts, but both are producing a tone of half the frequency. And two sources of a frequency does not give the same sound as one source of double the frequency.

The musical instrument analogy works here as well.
That's not exactly true. If both sources are perfectly locked in phase - what can happen on two cylynder banks within one engine but can't happen on two engines or distinct musical instruments - you will have one perceived highier pich sound signature.

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
44
Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 19:22

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

rjsa wrote:
xxChrisxx wrote:
You may be hearing both exhausts, but both are producing a tone of half the frequency. And two sources of a frequency does not give the same sound as one source of double the frequency.

The musical instrument analogy works here as well.
That's not exactly true. If both sources are perfectly locked in phase - what can happen on two cylynder banks within one engine but can't happen on two engines or distinct musical instruments - you will have one perceived highier pich sound signature.
Care to elaborate why you believe this to be the case? Rather than making a woolly statement that allows wiggle room. Lets agree a clear premise/scenario to explore.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

bhallg2k wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:Very funny that the noise lovers down vote people telling the truth on a technical forum. Actually it is a shame.
I did that, because this...
WhiteBlue wrote:
rjsa wrote:Pretty cool:
But unrealistic. It disregards that you hear only half the frequency of the V10 and V8s, because acoustically they have two separate banks using its own respective exhaust. The V6 will run with the full frequency because both banks run into the one turbo. Even the turbo V6 of the past had two separate banks with one turbo each. Their sound is also of lower frequency.
...is utterly absurd, but I didn't feel like starting an argument with you last night.
This is not only my point. It was made in 2011 by Rob White of Renault engine factory in a technical article I read. Perhaps I can find it for you. IMO it is a valid point that motivated the engine working group to specify a single turbo charger for both banks of the engine.
OK, I found a reference to the same interview, but it leaves out the technical explanation Rob White provided.
http://blogs.bettor.com/Rob-White-claim ... ews-a81096
White also claims that since the engines will use a single turbocharger and a single exhaust outlet, the sound of the engines is not going to change much and in fact, they are going to sound even better.
Here is another quote of the same interview. link here!
Rob White wrote:A single turbo will join together the six exhaust outlets and have a single tailpipe from the back, so that would tend to make the frequency of the engine note much higher than the frequency note from .. a V6 with separate exhausts.
I hope you recognize the expertise of the fellow. He certainly knows more about engine frequencies than your guitar player. And that was the gist of my post.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

I think it'll be just fine.

If they end up sounding anything like the turbo V6's of the late 80's I'm sold. By far the best era as far as motor sound goes, IMO.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

rjsa
rjsa
51
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote: OK, I found a reference to the same interview, but it leaves out the technical explanation Rob White provided.
http://blogs.bettor.com/Rob-White-claim ... ews-a81096
White also claims that since the engines will use a single turbocharger and a single exhaust outlet, the sound of the engines is not going to change much and in fact, they are going to sound even better.
Here is another quote of the same interview. link here!
Rob White wrote:A single turbo will join together the six exhaust outlets and have a single tailpipe from the back, so that would tend to make the frequency of the engine note much higher than the frequency note from .. a V6 with separate exhausts.
I hope you recognize the expertise of the fellow. He certainly knows more about engine frequencies than your guitar player. And that was the gist of my post.
All I could find was: "White also claims that since the engines will use a single turbocharger and a single exhaust outlet, the sound of the engines is not going to change much and in fact, they are going to sound even better."

And that's pretty far from a V6 with two pipes giving half the frequency.

rjsa
rjsa
51
Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 03:01

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

xxChrisxx wrote:
rjsa wrote:
xxChrisxx wrote:
You may be hearing both exhausts, but both are producing a tone of half the frequency. And two sources of a frequency does not give the same sound as one source of double the frequency.

The musical instrument analogy works here as well.
That's not exactly true. If both sources are perfectly locked in phase - what can happen on two cylinder banks within one engine but can't happen on two engines or distinct musical instruments - you will have one perceived higher pitch sound signature.
Care to elaborate why you believe this to be the case? Rather than making a woolly statement that allows wiggle room. Lets agree a clear premise/scenario to explore.
Know the concept of linearity?

In mathematics, a linear map or linear function f(x) is a function which satisfies the following two properties:
-Additivity (also called the superposition property): f(x + y) = f(x) + f(y).
-Homogeneity of degree 1: f(αx) = αf(x) for all α.

Well, it applies to sound waves.

I wont ague that having one or two tail pipes will change the character of the sound. Also the presence of the turbo. But the half frequency assumption does not float.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: 2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

Post

rjsa wrote:I wont ague that having one or two tail pipes will change the character of the sound. Also the presence of the turbo. But the half frequency assumption does not float.
With other words the frequency is different (higher) for the 2014 turbo V6 than assumed by the guitar player. That was my main point when I said it was unrealistic. I don't really care enough for this issue to go into mathematics and figure it out. If you think you have the right frequency computed you can tell us the result. But I bet it will not be the one in the video.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)