2013 German GP - Nurburgring

[Chuckjr]

Kimi should not have been directed to pit. Their tire use was the best of the field and he could have won it. What a disappointment. Kimi prolly cannot get out of Lotus and into that Red Bull fast enough. Should be a good time watching him and Vettle go at it next year.

Sad to see Ham just falling back yet again into the clutches of the field - and his start was questionable at best. Shame. I wonder if he is losing a bit in his starts as he used to be more consistent with them? Its just gotta be so frustrating to just keep falling backward in the races. He has mentioned he really is annoyed when he falls back.

How on earth is Vettel going to be stopped?

[jamsbong]

Both! Apparently he made a mistake and spun, but then could not get back on track as his gearbox was stuck in 5th gear.

source:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108659

Another race to forget for Felipe...

LOL
He is the worst driver of the race. personally, I think Massa has great talent to secure a Ferrari seat and nothing else.

[komninosm]

All those super quick record time pitstops may demand their tribute I'm afraid.
Screw that crap, no human being is able to coordinate 10 people doing a synchronous technical task in under 2 seconds in a safe manner.

Yeah, we need refueling back.

[Poncho]

All those super quick record time pitstops may demand their tribute I'm afraid.
Screw that crap, no human being is able to coordinate 10 people doing a synchronous technical task in under 2 seconds in a safe manner.

Yeah, we need refueling back.

No disrespect, but having a lot of fuel and teams trying to put the load in a smaller fraction of time to the cars, could have more serious threat to the guys in the pit lane.

[komninosm]

All those super quick record time pitstops may demand their tribute I'm afraid.
Screw that crap, no human being is able to coordinate 10 people doing a synchronous technical task in under 2 seconds in a safe manner.

Yeah, we need refueling back.

No disrespect, but having a lot of fuel and teams trying to put the load in a smaller fraction of time to the cars, could have more serious threat to the guys in the pit lane.

Not true. Refueling is done by regulation pumps, there's no race to put more fuel in, it merely lets you change tires in a less hasty way too. Refueling accidents are few and far between and never had any casualties and are dealth with easily. Loose tires ruin races and may get people killed. This time they got lucky. If a guy with poor constitution like me was hit by that tire he'd be dead now. Refueling made different number pit stop strategies available for more reasons than destructo-tires. It made sense. I guess we'll see next year with the Prius F1 cars...

Read this if you want:
http://www.enterf1.com/archive/064-the-bite-point.php
Also applies to Mercedes tire test "obsessivists."

How did alonso run out of fuel when safety car was on track for number of laps?

Solid drive from vettel and grosejan. Others clearly lucked in with safety car, including kimi and alonso.

OMG I agree with Juzh in all 3 >.<

[iotar__]

Kimi should not have been directed to pit. Their tire use was the best of the field and he could have won it. What a disappointment. Kimi prolly cannot get out of Lotus and into that Red Bull fast enough. Should be a good time watching him and Vettle go at it next year.

[Again: like in Silverstone?] It doesn't make sense. Had he stayed his tyres would have been seventeen laps older than Vettel's with 11 laps to go. And total expected stint on his mediums - 36 laps.

Instead he got optimal strategy: Vettel was held up, he had faster, fresher tyres, was 4 s behind Vettel, with team orders in hand and 10 laps to go to do the job. He had everything on a silver plate and wasn't fast enough on softs. If it's debatable could you point out which part?

[andartop]

It doesn't make sense. Had he stayed his tyres would have been seventeen laps older than Vettel's with 11 laps to go. And total expected stint on his mediums - 36 laps.

17 + 11 = 28
28 < 36

So, actually it does make sense.

Guess we'll never know what could have happened.

[raymondu999]

It doesn't make sense. Had he stayed his tyres would have been seventeen laps older than Vettel's with 11 laps to go. And total expected stint on his mediums - 36 laps.

17 + 11 = 28
28 < 36

So, actually it does make sense.

Guess we'll never know what could have happened.

No... the 28 is a phantom number.

His tyres were changed on L24 (17 laps older than Vettel's L41 pitstop tyres). Vettel's tyres had to last 19 laps. Kimi would have had to make them work for 36 laps, which is what iotar is saying wouldn't have stuck.

[The Driver]

Note that 5 or 6 of those laps were behind the safety car with minimal degradation. Also Perez had mediums for 36 laps from the safety car to the end without any worsening of the lap times. With Kimi being some 12 to 13 seconds ahead of Vettel when he pitted, it should have been enough. Worst that could have happened would have been 4th behind Alonso anyway.

[iotar__]

Note that 5 or 6 of those laps were behind the safety car with minimal degradation. Also Perez had mediums for 36 laps from the safety car to the end without any worsening of the lap times. With Kimi being some 12 to 13 seconds ahead of Vettel when he pitted, it should have been enough. Worst that could have happened would have been 4th behind Alonso anyway.

So it's 36 in the end or not? Minimal degradation, it' not that simple but it's a minor element. "Without any worsening" sounds "good" but it's a misinformation. 1. They are supposed to get faster, it's not an achievement. Also it's "no worsening" from slow level 2. Relatively to drivers on one stop more he lost a lot. Biggest losses of course towards the end of the stint. Same would have happened to Raikkonen, less but the same trend. See for yourself:
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... n%20Vettel

2. This "theory" only exists to absolve the driver from any responsibility for being slow. "But Perez tried it" So what? How could that be a worse situation?
9 laps
3,5 s
8 laps fresher
faster soft tyres
Everything on a silver plate for Raikkonen. Certain second with team orders and almost certain win if you've got the pace and can overtake.

[ringo]

any video of hamilton overtake on button?

[SiLo]

any video of hamilton overtake on button?

I would also like to see this, I thought he didn't beat him but apparently he did!

[mikeerfol]

It was shown live from Lewis' onboard camera.

EDIT: Actually I don't remember if it was shown live or a replay but I'm sure it was broadcasted during the race.

[rssh]

See after race Sky coverage they have shown the overtake of JEN by HAM on the outside of turn 2.

[iotar__]

Very promising news
Lotus confirms 'plenty' of new parts on way
Lotus trackside operations director Alan Permane has said the Enstone-based outfit will have 『plenty』 of 『interesting new parts』 to test at Silverstone next week.
Lotus took a 2-3 finish at the German Grand Prix last weekend, with Kimi Raikkonen challenging Sebastian Vettel in the closing stages and eventually finishing just one second back.
The squad will now be out to maintain that form after a disappointing few races in Britain, Canada and Monaco.

「We』re very happy to be back on the podium again after a short spell of somewhat bleak races,」 Permane told Lotus』 official team website. 「Both cars ran faultlessly from start to finish and for a good portion of the race it did look like we would be able to take the fight to Sebastian, but ultimately we didn't quite manage it.
「The win may have eluded us, but to have both drivers pick up silverware and also outscore our rivals in the Constructor's Championship means we can't be too disappointed.」

「We've now got the Silverstone test to prepare for – with plenty of interesting new parts on the way for assessment – so there's actually not much in the way of rest before we head to Hungary,」 he added, 「but we』ll be looking to head into the shutdown on the back of another good result to give everyone a satisfying and well-earned break.」

As for what cost Raikkonen the win at the Nürburgring, Permane felt the time lost early on was crucial.
「The damage was done when Kimi was held up by Lewis after his first pit stop [on lap 8], but he came back fighting at the end of the race to finish a very close second with a little help from the safety car. We did consider running him on a two-stop strategy, but it would have meant an incredibly long final stint and ultimately represented a sizeable risk, as we could see the tyre performance dropping.
「The path we chose guaranteed second place with the possibility of a late charge for the win, while the alternative – despite also offering the potential for victory – would have very likely resulted in the tyres falling off a cliff and dropping Kimi behind Fernando [Alonso].

「To be honest we did expect slightly more performance from his final set of soft tyres, but he was right with Sebastian at the end so I think the right call was made,」 Permane concluded.

What Permane is saying doesn't make sense at all.
1. “The damage was done when Kimi was held up by Lewis after his first pit stop [on lap 8], but he came back [..]" Truly remarkable statement. Damage was not done - because safety car made it completely irrelevant. His logic is broken. And what damage was that? Being slower on softs than Hamilton making mistakes on his outlap on mediums? Surely it was possible to get in front after the stint on softs, the evidence is there.
How about damage from holding faster team-mate on softs:
- let's say 2 seconds lost behind Raikkonen
- 0,6/0,7 lost on tyre change only compared to Raikkonen/Vettel
- RG would have been in front of Button after 1st stop add some tenths lost while overtaking him
= Instead of over 4 seconds 1-2 seconds with 6 laps fresher tyres. Getting in front of Vettel was even more possible with optimal strategy and pitstops. Theoretical but if we're talking about pace comparisons and "damage was done" scenarios.

2. "Little help from safety car"? Safety car ruined all the advantage Lotus had. Not only over the drivers behind (10 s gap) but also over Vettel from longer, faster first stint = 6 laps fresher tyres to play with in two further stints. 10s and 5 laps fresher (vs KR) tyres is little in F1 now?

3. “To be honest we did expect slightly more performance from his final set of soft tyres, but he was right with Sebastian at the end so I think the right call was made,” Well yes of course, about the right call. And the opposite about "right with Sebastian". Outside of DRS for all but the final lap is "right with Sebastian"? Not a millisecond fighting for the win. How can anyone serious write something like this?

Add all that together and considering Red Bull were in clear air for most of the race, E21 was easily match for them without safety car. Pace on "qualifying tyres" giving advantage, which wasn't that common this season. Very competitive even with unlucky safety car. Tyres and timing of third pitstop (wrong on purpose) made it impossible to judge the pace on softs, using first stint as an indication of pace ("expected performance from softs" part).