Mercedes AMG F1 W04

[raymondu999]

I am still unclear on those regs to be honest. As engine supplier, at the time of said tech directive, wouldn't Merc have had access to all the different maps by their customers?

[beelsebob]

I am still unclear on those regs to be honest. As engine supplier, at the time of said tech directive, wouldn't Merc have had access to all the different maps by their customers?

Merc the engine manufacturer would have, yes.
Merc the team though would not.

That, and even if they would have, they would not have selected their customers engine maps to freeze as their choices
1) Because I'm betting the contracts with their customers say they can't.
2) Because they wouldn't have been appropriate for the car as it stood.

[Shakeman]

First post!
Now, to the business. I think the real question is why the W04 overworks its tyres. Is it too much downforce? To little downforce? A soft suspension? A hard suspension? A heavy car? I am certain that they cannot make a bullet of a horrible car, otherwise Williams, FI, Sauber would be pole makers.

It's a very difficult to know what the reason is for Merc's issues with tyres and could fall into "all of the above" category for what's wrong. It's a little bit of everything that means they're out of the performance window in the race. At speed the tyres do all sorts of weird things like produce standing waves in their structure and knowing how to control it is key to tyre life. Too much downforce also works the tyre hard, the Merc appears not to be lacking downforce, maybe its laptime is too dependent on DF rather than mechanical grip, there must be an optimum race setup. RB claim to have taken DF off the car maybe Merc needs to do the same counterintuitive trick.

They seemed to be getting on top of the tyres right before the Silverstone blowouts so their understanding is moving in the right direction. Tyres being a moving target appears to hit Merc the most. I'm hoping Lowe can bring additional knowledge to bear and make the season worth watching again.

[beelsebob]

First post!
Now, to the business. I think the real question is why the W04 overworks its tyres. Is it too much downforce? To little downforce? A soft suspension? A hard suspension? A heavy car? I am certain that they cannot make a bullet of a horrible car, otherwise Williams, FI, Sauber would be pole makers.

It's a very difficult to know what the reason is for Merc's issues with tyres and could fall into "all of the above" category for what's wrong. It's a little bit of everything that means they're out of the performance window in the race. At speed the tyres do all sorts of weird things like produce standing waves in their structure and knowing how to control it is key to tyre life. Too much downforce also works the tyre hard, the Merc appears not to be lacking downforce, maybe its laptime is too dependent on DF rather than mechanical grip, there must be an optimum race setup. RB claim to have taken DF off the car maybe Merc needs to do the same counterintuitive trick.

They seemed to be getting on top of the tyres right before the Silverstone blowouts so their understanding is moving in the right direction. Tyres being a moving target appears to hit Merc the most. I'm hoping Lowe can bring additional knowledge to bear and make the season worth watching again.

I don't think it's anything to do with a moving target, I think it's just exactly what you said - they appeared to be getting on top of the tyres... They weren't doing. They only appeared to be doing so because the conditions favored teams who could get a lot of heat into the rear tyres quickly.

[rifrafs2kees]

Are they still fielding one of the shortest wheelbases on the grid? A short wheel base will mean higher weight transfer and more consequently higher heat generation in the tires....anyone know how their wheelbase compares with the gentle cars? The car still looks stubby to me

[smlbstcbr]

It is interesting to learn that Red Bull has put less downforce to overcome the inherently fragile tyres. Then, the paradigm of finding more downforce has been replaced by how to take care of the tyres. If this is the problem, then Mercedes will have a long second part of the season and a re-thinking of next year's design (a major issue, I think).
I was thinking about their suspension and, reading the commentaries here, I think that the interlinking is their problem. As mentioned above, standing waves form in the tyres causing a lot of things (overheating and so). These waves also travel to the other tyres by means of the hydraulic fluid in the suspension, causing the horrendous degradation they are having. Cars with less sophisticated suspensions seem to be handling their tyres in a much better way than the interlinked suspension of W04.

[WhiteBlue]

Lotus also have the FRIC but they are doing fine on tyre wear. I do not think that theory of you about standing waves travelling from tyres to hydraulics and to other tyres is correct.

[smlbstcbr]

To what level the suspensions in the Lotus and Mercedes are linked (between elements, that's it) is unknown. Perhaps Lotus has a partial linkage while Mercedes, I think, has a completely linked suspension (replacing functions of anti roll bars, dampers, etc). Didn't Scarbs wrote an article about the Mercedes suspension explaining that?

[henra]

It's a very difficult to know what the reason is for Merc's issues with tyres and could fall into "all of the above" category for what's wrong. It's a little bit of everything that means they're out of the performance window in the race.

One thing I'm missing in these theories is a high cg, especially with full fuel.

A high cg will load the outer tyre disproportionately higher. We saw that Merc had trouble with the rear tyres where other Teams were 'only' struggling with the front. As most of the roll forces are taken by the rear this could also be a slight hint in that direction.
It is probably not the only reason but it could be a contributing factor.
And it might explain why it's so hard to correct.
On circuits with few fast sweeping turns it will not be such a factor as the lateral g load is not so high and not sustained for so long. In Silverstone simply colder weather and track may have lead to just hitting the tyre temp window right in the middle where others might have hit the lower end of the temp window.

[bonjon1979]

It's a very difficult to know what the reason is for Merc's issues with tyres and could fall into "all of the above" category for what's wrong. It's a little bit of everything that means they're out of the performance window in the race.

One thing I'm missing in these theories is a high cg, especially with full fuel.

A high cg will load the outer tyre disproportionately higher. We saw that Merc had trouble with the rear tyres where other Teams were 'only' struggling with the front. As most of the roll forces are taken by the rear this could also be a slight hint in that direction.
It is probably not the only reason but it could be a contributing factor.
And it might explain why it's so hard to correct.
On circuits with few fast sweeping turns it will not be such a factor as the lateral g load is not so high and not sustained for so long. In Silverstone simply colder weather and track may have lead to just hitting the tyre temp window right in the middle where others might have hit the lower end of the temp window.

It does seem like they're right on the cusp of the temperature window. When it's too hot the car really struggles with degradation but we've seen in a couple of races that suddenly change as the race wears on and temps drop a few degrees. However, we have to be careful when drawing too many conclusions. Just because the car did better when temps dropped doesn't mean it was because of this. it could be the drop in fuel load or more likely a combination of factors. It'll be interesting to see what the new tyres bring in Hungary but I predict a horrendous weekend. That track has a lot of tight, twisty corners and usually very high temperatures. With the tyre selection of soft and medium, in addition to the lack of running on the new tyres. I think we could be looking at a four stopper.

[Coefficient]

It's a very difficult to know what the reason is for Merc's issues with tyres and could fall into "all of the above" category for what's wrong. It's a little bit of everything that means they're out of the performance window in the race.

One thing I'm missing in these theories is a high cg, especially with full fuel.

A high cg will load the outer tyre disproportionately higher. We saw that Merc had trouble with the rear tyres where other Teams were 'only' struggling with the front. As most of the roll forces are taken by the rear this could also be a slight hint in that direction.
It is probably not the only reason but it could be a contributing factor.
And it might explain why it's so hard to correct.
On circuits with few fast sweeping turns it will not be such a factor as the lateral g load is not so high and not sustained for so long. In Silverstone simply colder weather and track may have lead to just hitting the tyre temp window right in the middle where others might have hit the lower end of the temp window.

It does seem like they're right on the cusp of the temperature window. When it's too hot the car really struggles with degradation but we've seen in a couple of races that suddenly change as the race wears on and temps drop a few degrees. However, we have to be careful when drawing too many conclusions. Just because the car did better when temps dropped doesn't mean it was because of this. it could be the drop in fuel load or more likely a combination of factors. It'll be interesting to see what the new tyres bring in Hungary but I predict a horrendous weekend. That track has a lot of tight, twisty corners and usually very high temperatures. With the tyre selection of soft and medium, in addition to the lack of running on the new tyres. I think we could be looking at a four stopper.

Or they could win, like in Monaco.

[SectorOne]

Locking out the front row could make that a possibility. Although one of them probably has to "help" the other guy win.

[NewtonMeter]

Locking out the front row could make that a possibility. Although one of them probably has to "help" the other guy win.

Problem is, one of them always always has a bad getaway. I wonder why that is...

[Shakeman]

Locking out the front row could make that a possibility. Although one of them probably has to "help" the other guy win.

Problem is, one of them always always has a bad getaway. I wonder why that is...

Because the getaway is incredibly difficult and any slight suboptimal timing of clutch and gear changes and tyre slip can make a disproportionate difference even for highly experienced F1 drivers.

[SectorOne]

Problem is, one of them always always has a bad getaway. I wonder why that is...

Do you have some numbers to look at?