Did Bernie lie?

[xpensive]

I believe Horner's statement is his master's voice, Mateschitz is obviously happy when been given his own private Grand Prix,
for which he's likely to pay a fraction of what those asian dictatorships are paying MrE and the CVC.

Why Mateschitz was given this xtravagant present this very summer? Well, that's for you members to figure out.

[WhiteBlue]

Well, according to Autosport Mateschitz paid the usual fee, no discount.I believe the average is about $40m now. But memory is shaky. That does not mean that Red Bull isn't in Bed with Bernie. I think they are heavily. Bernie is always your friend if you give him a ton of money and Mateschitz obviously has pumped a lot of this into F1 over the last two decades.

[bhall]

As I understand Daimlers Compliance and rules of conduct do not make a difference between acused ,prosecuted or convicted .I will source the relevant paperwork later on and try to put some light to this

We Stand for Fair Competition and Obey the Law.

We are committed to ensuring fair competition in our markets and to obeying applicable anti-trust and competition laws. We prohibit illegal agreements and coordinated behaviour that intends to or may limit competition. If we discover such agreements, we immediately terminate them and impose sanctions.

In our global activities and when opening up new markets, we are also required to obey further laws and regulations. These include:
–Foreign trade legislation, including export control regulations
-Tax and customs duty laws
–Money laundering laws
–Anti-terrorism laws

[...]

We Live by this Principle: We Do not Give or Take Bribes.

We do not do business at any cost. We only want to win contracts in a fair and legal manner. The Daimler Group does not tolerate unethical or corrupt behaviour by its employees or business partners and will take action against it. Decisions based on corruption are immoral, distort competition, harm the company’s assets and reputation and go against the common good.

We pay special attention to ethical behaviour in our contact with political parties, public authorities and their officials both at home and abroad. Under no conditions do we grant payments, favours or other monetary contributions to civil servants, public employees or employees of governmental organizations in order to win contracts or gain advantages for the Daimler Group or other individuals. We do not waiver, even when benefits are expected or ”common” for official duties. We also do not try to influence specific business dealings with private enterprises by making illegal payments.

In our business dealings, we always pay special attention to avoid even the mere appearance of an impropriety, such as an attempt to influence our business partners or customers.

The Daimler Group provides information and conducts regular audits to ensure corrupt behaviour is exposed, stopped and punished.

We want to use our market influence to lead the way in fighting corruption. We are convinced that fighting corruption strengthens our good reputation in the world and ensures us sustained economic success.

[GitanesBlondes]

Well based on that code of Daimler's, we should be expecting them to withdraw from Formula One?

I don't see how anyone within the company can justify being associated with Bernie Ecclestone at this point, as he is a business partner. Or is Zetsche holding onto his fairy tale fantasy of being the at the helm for a Silver Arrows championship?

Unless of course some bargain was struck internally with Daimler where they want to see how things shake out for Ecclestone?

[WhiteBlue]

I don't see "in dubio contra reo" somewhere in the code.

I'm personally convinced that Ecclestone is guilty as hell, but for the law he is not guilty until found so by the court. I can voice my opinion and I can appeal to CVC to suspend him immediately but Nobody can break legal contracts until a guilty verdict is passed.

Mercedes are in the championship with their team, their name and brand. They have no option to withdraw from the championship without risking a breach of contract. The price may be absolutely staggering even for them if they break their contract. The 100m to McLaren will look like loose change compared to what they are going to face in damage claims.

I believe there will be no action from Mercedes until legal facts are established. Words perhaps, but no action.

[flynfrog]

Didn't read all 8 pages but the simple answer is depends... Was his mouth open?

[marcush.]

I don't see "in dubio contra reo" somewhere in the code.

I'm personally convinced that Ecclestone is guilty as hell, but for the law he is not guilty until found so by the court. I can voice my opinion and I can appeal to CVC to suspend him immediately but Nobody can break legal contracts until a guilty verdict is passed.

Mercedes are in the championship with their team, their name and brand. They have no option to withdraw from the championship without risking a breach of contract. The price may be absolutely staggering even for them if they break their contract. The 100m to McLaren will look like loose change compared to what they are going to face in damage claims.

I believe there will be no action from Mercedes until legal facts are established. Words perhaps, but no action.

Maybe it will cost 500mill ,i don´t think it does make a difference at all to Daimler.Read again .No contract or business is worth risking reputation as a clean business.
I believe putting Wolff and Lauda in placw has opened them a possibility to bail out in short time if necessary.They borrowed time when Zetsche got his reelection sorted this year but rest assured this all is going to boil up all too soon and only the teams recent turnaround has helped to keep the flame smaller than expected.
So Bernie and co will hope for a very competitive Mercedes AMg team in the coming months but please not a championship ...as this would be a fitting scenario to stop there and then.

[xpensive]

...but rest assured this all is going to boil up all too soon and only the teams recent turnaround has helped to keep the flame smaller than expected.
So Bernie and co will hope for a very competitive Mercedes AMg team in the coming months but please not a championship ...as this would be a fitting scenario to stop there and then.

What a strange coincidence indeed?

[lotus7]

Quote :"We Live by this Principle: We Do not Give or Take Bribes.

We do not do business at any cost. We only want to win contracts in a fair and legal manner. The Daimler Group does not tolerate unethical or corrupt behaviour by its employees or business partners and will take action against it. Decisions based on corruption are immoral, distort competition, harm the company’s assets and reputation and go against the common good."

So I wonder who else but MBSA ( or their business partners ) gave a certain politician here ( Tony Yengeni) a massive "discount" on his M Class Merc as part of our so called Arms Deal in late 1990's !
Yengeni got a 5 year prison sentence this ( being released after a few months for being a loyal cadre and for taking some of the heat )
MBSA still supply these luxury vehicles at "tender" prices to the high and mighty politicians

[GitanesBlondes]

I don't see "in dubio contra reo" somewhere in the code.

I'm personally convinced that Ecclestone is guilty as hell, but for the law he is not guilty until found so by the court. I can voice my opinion and I can appeal to CVC to suspend him immediately but Nobody can break legal contracts until a guilty verdict is passed.

Mercedes are in the championship with their team, their name and brand. They have no option to withdraw from the championship without risking a breach of contract. The price may be absolutely staggering even for them if they break their contract. The 100m to McLaren will look like loose change compared to what they are going to face in damage claims.

I believe there will be no action from Mercedes until legal facts are established. Words perhaps, but no action.

Maybe it will cost 500mill ,i don´t think it does make a difference at all to Daimler.Read again .No contract or business is worth risking reputation as a clean business.
I believe putting Wolff and Lauda in placw has opened them a possibility to bail out in short time if necessary.They borrowed time when Zetsche got his reelection sorted this year but rest assured this all is going to boil up all too soon and only the teams recent turnaround has helped to keep the flame smaller than expected.
So Bernie and co will hope for a very competitive Mercedes AMg team in the coming months but please not a championship ...as this would be a fitting scenario to stop there and then.

Very good thoughts marcush. I've suspected for awhile that Wolff and Lauda showing up had nothing more than to do than to have a succession plan in place should a Daimler exit be needed quickly. Since they bought up the majority of the Aabar shares combined, they likely will step in to buy the outstanding shares in MGP if needed. If that needs to happen, we'll likely see Wolff divest fully of his Williams shares that he continues to hold onto.

But in the meantime, Bernie being who he is has thought of every conceivable way to keep Mercedes in the sport as a team, and getting a competitive team from Mercedes is a good way to keep them around for awhile longer. I feel the days of the manufacturers as a works team will be gone for good whenever Mercedes leaves altogether. I don't see Renault ever fielding another team again. Who else is there? Ingolstad has made it pretty clear they think F1 is a waste of money for their purposes with restricted engines. Peugeot tried as a engine supplier but that didn't work out. Lamborghini under other ownership tried and failed altogether, and given who their present owners are, they'll never be seen again. Ford made an effort with Jaguar and that was another disaster. Toyota and Honda both were unable to do anything. Subaru made that brief effort on the engine front with Carlo Chiti and that was forgettable. BMW did ok, but ultimately left too. Alfa Romeo was brief when they tried again 30 years ago. They haven't been seen since either.

Who else is left among major manufacturers? Chevrolet? They'll never waste their time on F1.

I don't see what is so attractive about having works teams anyway, it never ends well no matter what. Ferrari is a different sort of manufacturer so I don't really think using them as an example that it can work has any validity.

No, I think F1 needs to realize it only has longevity when privateers are involved...which to me is what makes Bernie's need for Mercedes rather head-scratching.

[xpensive]

...
No, I think F1 needs to realize it only has longevity when privateers are involved...which to me is what makes Bernie's need for Mercedes rather head-scratching.

I think it has to do with kudos among the uber-wealthy and beautiful crowd in the vip-area, while both Ferrari and Mercedes
are associated with the good life in that arena, McLaren is not quite there yet and Red Bull is a soft-drink for the riff-raff.

If you look at where MrE finds investors for his races nowadays there's plenty of the former kind among the clientele,
riche nouveau if you wish, people who find it less than xciting to mingle with folks in Sauber- and Toro Rosso-wear.

The three-pointed star is hard-currency everywhere, from middle-east dictators to russian oligharcs and NJ-mobsters.

[SectorOne]

I don't see what is so attractive about having works teams anyway, it never ends well no matter what.

I think that goes for nearly every team. In fact the only teams that has properly survived F1 is Williams, Mclaren and Ferrari.
With Sauber next on the list although they have sold their team once to a manufacturer which probably helped them in a couple of ways.
But looking at all the privateer teams throughout history, they have come and gone just like manufacturers, the only differnce is that privateer teams far outnumber the manufacturers.

It would be interesting to see the average life span of a privateer and of a manufacturer.

[WhiteBlue]

It is an chicken and egg type problem. Do you have manufacturers come and go because the constructors and Bernie run unfriendly policies or do they run unfriendly policies to reduce the competition from manufacturers? I suspect the latter is correct.

[xpensive]

It is an chicken and egg type problem. Do you have manufacturers come and go because the constructors and Bernie run unfriendly policies or do they run unfriendly policies to reduce the competition from manufacturers? I suspect the latter is correct.

If my memory serves me well, the policy during MrM's reign was initially to attract the big manufacturers, like Honda, Toyota,
and BMW, but embarrassing documentations of his personal life, obvious manipulations of the diffuser-rules and strange budget cap/spec engine ideas made them finally turn their back at Formula one.

All under the cover of the economic crisis of course.

[GitanesBlondes]

...
No, I think F1 needs to realize it only has longevity when privateers are involved...which to me is what makes Bernie's need for Mercedes rather head-scratching.

I think it has to do with kudos among the uber-wealthy and beautiful crowd in the vip-area, while both Ferrari and Mercedes
are associated with the good life in that arena, McLaren is not quite there yet and Red Bull is a soft-drink for the riff-raff.

If you look at where MrE finds investors for his races nowadays there's plenty of the former kind among the clientele,
riche nouveau if you wish, people who find it less than xciting to mingle with folks in Sauber- and Toro Rosso-wear.

The three-pointed star is hard-currency everywhere, from middle-east dictators to russian oligharcs and NJ-mobsters.

Good points.

The shift in F1 from a more sporting environment changed the more Bernie continued pursuing that noveau riche crowd. Certainly there was a tremendous influx of money from that segment, but they're also the segment that is easily distracted. I don't believe Bernie has created any longevity with these people as F1 is nothing more than a passing fad to them. Eventually once the novelty wears off of all of the gimmicks that have been introduced the past few seasons, they'll eventually blow away to something else outside of showing up for Monaco. However, Bernie has been after something else altogether - the IPO. I feel the last few seasons have been all about generating enormous interest no matter how artificial it may all be to try and drive the IPO price upward. Having Mercedes involved certainly does wonders as they lend a certain credibility (with the high roller crowd) to the whole thing that wasn't present in the days of Chapman, Tyrrell, Hesketh, etc.

Of course too one could perhaps make a case that the overall sanitation of the sport has been to appeal very much to these people, who don't want to see drivers retiring from races because they ran off into a gravel trap due to error. Even the entire pit environment has become as sterile as anything I've ever seen. Not a spec of motor oil to be found in the garages, or even on mechanics during broadcasts. Engines expiring on the track and laying down a subsequent oil slick that the next car along touches causing a spinout into a barrier isn't the sort of thing that appeals to that clientele either. Trying to bunch up the field as much as possible for the duration of a grand prix does appeal to that clientele who think they're at just another horse race.