Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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notApineapple wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:Read what Newey said.
Forget what Newey said.
He was on manslaughter charges based on the accusation that the steering column broke. Of course he is going to have another theory.
GitanesBlondes wrote:And also consider where Senna was in the corner, as well as the line he was taking.
Looks all pretty normal to me.
GitanesBlondes wrote:Further, consider the effect of the underside of the chassis dragging on the ground and the effect it has on steering.
Didn't seem to trouble him on the lap before.
I'm always amazed at how easily people will subscribe to the finding of a court for no other reason than it is a court.

Italian law being what it is is more interested in assigning blame to someone no matter what. As I mentioned earlier, Colin Chapman had to avoid Italy after Jochen Rindt was killed due to the mentality that exists there. Italian "justice" is suspect at best. One only has to look at any number of farcical trials that have occurred there.

The degree of which the front wheels were turned were minimal. People keep trying to make it sound as if they were turned tremendously, which they weren't. I posted the video of Nelson Piquet's onboard as a comparison to show that the number of degrees the front wheels would turn in Tamburello was not a tremendous deal especially compared to Tossa, Rivazza, Traguardo, etc.

Michael Schumacher himself who had front row seats to the entire thing mentioned Senna almost lost it on lap 6 when going through the corner. So in spite of the lap time he set, it's more than obvious that things were not on the up-and-up on lap 6, which so many people casually assume. Senna's onboard camera while interesting and useful, were nowhere near as useful as Schumacher's onboard at the beginning of lap 7. That camera shows things far more important than Senna's onboard. Even Damon Hill's onboard showed just how bad the surface was in the corner.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

timbo
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Interestingly how other Newey's words were omitted.
The honest truth is that no one will ever know exactly what happened. There’s no doubt the steering column failed and the big question was whether it failed in the accident or did it cause the accident? It had fatigue cracks and would have failed at some point. There is no question that its design was very poor.
So it's a question of what happened first.
The only truth is that FW16 was a poorly designed unsafe POS.

Richard
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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GitanesBlondes wrote:Bingo, there is zero proof
That pretty much sums up every hypothesis. One dip into the list of related topics below shows us there is nothing new here other than that amateur video. I do hope we get to see that.

MadMatt
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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What is even more worrying than people quoting Neway which was DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN THE ACCIDENT is people talking about oversteer. Here is a picture for those who don't know what that means:

Image

How ON EARTH did he oversteer to end up in the wall. Please. "Quickly oversteer", well the car clearly understeered for most of Senna's last moments, not oversteered.

There are situations where the rear end loses grip and starts to oversteer, the car then getting grip back as the driver turns the steering wheel on the opposite lock and then grip again to make the car go straight outside the turn. This caused many deaths at Indy, but the motion of the car going oversteer, correcting, gripping towards the wall is clearly visible and does not happen in a split second as the Senna crash. You can clearly see that a mechanical failure or an external element acted on the car to make it change his heading direction so fast.

Almost like if no slip angle was produced anymore.

tpe
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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MadMatt wrote: Almost like if no slip angle was produced anymore.
Meaning?

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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The car does begin the oversteer in the corner. It's actually quite subtle, and tends to go unnoticed by many people.

That's all there really is to it.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

langwadt
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Tim.Wright wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote: And again...yes the FW-16's steering wheel moved around quite a bit. I said to not base it on any experiences one has with other race cars as it wasn't like any other race car, let alone F1 car for that matter. All telemetry showed the steering had no issue up till the moment of impact.
You can't just dismiss the steering compliance of other cars just because it doesn't fit your theory. If anyone can show me a leading F1 car from that period which had that much lateral compliance in the column I will personally buy them a carton of any beer they want. It simply doesn't happen.

I'm interested to know where you are sourcing all this info from as well. As far as I know, there is no vehicle data which runs right up until the moment of impact. So on that point you are either making it up, or have a bad source. Also, what data suggests the steering is ok? Angle? torque? Have you seen this data or are you just repeating what you've heard somewhere?
1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayjOW5DnwgM
2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM6MzcdK62k
3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX2Sd_Ww-HA
4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f9pumnvqDI
5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NjSIZfG5rk

number 3 at around 4:54 show how much the steering wheel could be moved just by pulling hard

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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I've seen these, my point is that they are complete BS. That amount of movement is simply not realistic. Actually, I would believe in the low ride height theory if there wasn't this BS video of the column flex. It seems like Williams have fabricated this video to try and clear their names.

Find me another car which demonstrates this amount of movement and I'll happily stand corrected. I've had a look at onboards of Damon Hill from 1994 and can hardly detect any lateral movement.

EDIT: Ironically, in video number 4, it actually shows how the steering wheel doesn't flex like that in any other onboards from 1994 at Aida, Interlagos and Imola. There is even vision of it running through Tamburello and that yellow button tracks a pretty rock solid trajectory.
Not the engineer at Force India

beelsebob
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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MadMatt wrote:How ON EARTH did he oversteer to end up in the wall. Please. "Quickly oversteer", well the car clearly understeered for most of Senna's last moments, not oversteered.
The way that you end up in the wall with oversteer is either
1) Backwards (which didn't happen); or
2) You correct for the oversteer, which means steering out of the turn, and in doing so introduce a load of understeer (which did happen).

timbo
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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beelsebob wrote:2) You correct for the oversteer, which means steering out of the turn, and in doing so introduce a load of understeer (which did happen).
Problem is that during the crash we do not see a correction move that could cause that.

beelsebob
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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timbo wrote:
beelsebob wrote:2) You correct for the oversteer, which means steering out of the turn, and in doing so introduce a load of understeer (which did happen).
Problem is that during the crash we do not see a correction move that could cause that.
Yes you do though...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8M7oWrjtx8[/youtube]
At about 14.5 seconds he puts a tiny fraction of right hand lock in relative to what he's currently doing, and the car reacts sharply to it.

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Thanks for posting that bob.

You can see the car oversteers to the left at 13-14 seconds.

Senna also tried to correct by cutting the throttle back to 50% to correct it.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

bhall
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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beelsebob wrote:[...]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8M7oWrjtx8
[...]
Well, wait a minute. This video seems to support the notion that Senna was shot. Let's explore this exciting new possibility.

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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bhallg2k wrote:
beelsebob wrote:[...]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8M7oWrjtx8
[...]
Well, wait a minute. This video seems to support the notion that Senna was shot. Let's explore this exciting new possibility.
There was a sniper in the trees with the perfect vantage point.

Even his head moves back and to the left.

Case closed.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

timbo
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Re: Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

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Actually his head movement is relevant to the discussion. IMO he tried to prepare himself for the impact, which means he felt that impact was inevitable which is more consistent with steering failure than bottoming out momentarily.