Official Senna telemetry Imola 94?

[Richard]

"Blame" is a very strong word and infers single causation. Most events like this are a result of several causations coming together to cause a perfect storm.

The investigation of Challenger disaster was a good example of understanding multiple causes leading to one catastrophic event.

I recently came across another example investigating a friendly fire incident over Iraq in April 1994 when two F-15 shot down two friendly helicopters:

I could have asked, "Why did they decide to shoot?" However, such a framing puts us squarely on a path that leads straight back to the individual decision maker, away from potentially powerful contextual features and right back into the jaws of the fundamental attribution error. "Why did they decide to shoot?" quickly becomes "Why did they make the wrong decision?" Hence, the attribution falls squarely onto the shoulders of the decision maker and away from potent situation factors that influence action. Framing the individual-level puzzle as a question of meaning rather than deciding shifts the emphasis away from individual decision makers toward a point somewhere "out there" where context and individual action overlap.... Such a reframing "from decision making to sensemaking" opened my eyes to the possibility that, given the circumstances, even / could have made the same "dumb mistake." This disturbing revelation, one that I was in no way looking for, underscores the importance of initially framing such senseless tragedies as "good people struggling to make sense," rather than as "bad ones making poor decisions"

Snook, S. 2001. Friendly Fire. Princeton University, Princeton, NJ. (pp. 206-2)

So in the context of Senna's death we have the FIA banning ride height, a track that had not been updated for the speed of the cars, car safety that had not been updated for the speed, a car that might possibly have been sensitive to ride height, drivers having preferred set ups turned out to be high risk, design teams who didn't fully understand the risks, etc etc. In a nutshell, an awful lot of people set the context for that race, and each had a role (aka blame) in the three major accidents that resulted in 2 fatalities.

[FoxHound]

Newey's account of the incident is not exactly definitive.

If you look at the camera shots, especially from Michael Schumacher’s following car, the car didn’t understeer off the track. It oversteered which is not consistent with a steering column failure. The rear of the car stepped out and all the data suggests that happened. Ayrton then corrected that by going to 50% throttle which would be consistent with trying to reduce the rear stepping out and then, half-a-second later, he went hard on the brakes. The question then is why did the rear step out? The car bottomed much harder on that second lap which again appears to be unusual because the tyre pressure should have come up by then – which leaves you expecting that the right rear tyre probably picked up a puncture from debris on the track. If I was pushed into picking out a single most likely cause that would be it

The car did oversteer, for whatever reason. However it did not oversteer into the barrier, in understeered. Hence why it was a frontal/side impact instead of rear/side.
What Newey omits from his account is the steering angle prior to the understeer moment into the wall.

Through that corner, at that speed, the driver will also be using steering as well as (50% according to Newey)throttle to correct this.
Once corrected Senna is almost immediately on the brakes(0.5 seconds).

The was no lock up into the corner, ABS was banned in 1994 we should also take into account.
The cars trajectory is linear after the correction is made.

What will solve this, is if we know for certain what the steering angle is for the final second or 2 of the cars running.

If there is no record of hard left angle, then we can assume Senna did not correct for the incoming wall(unlikely).
If there is evidence to suggest Senna used turned the steering left, in the second or 2 prior to impact then we must consider why the car did not turn.

Broken steering column?
Possibility that cannot be denied, because it meets all the criteria....in spite of some pretty hardened views against this theory. And was proven to have snapped....before or after...whatever you choose to believe.

Bottoming out?
In my opinion a highly likely candidate of culpability. It fits all the criteria and is something that goes well with Williams trying to overcome the active suspension ban.

Now anyone one of us in the same position as Senna, would have chosen the fastest available setting. It's up to the engineers to accommodate these requirements.
The engineers can never give a driver a perfect set up, because at some point the setup will be less than perfect for one of the 60 laps.

The engineers knew what to give Senna, and Senna knew what he had to play with. However, on one particular corner the car didn't stick.
As someone said, a perfect storm.
Therefore, apportioning blame is so pointless and moot that it is a nonsense to bicker like children because it was "Senna's fault" or of Williams doing . Senna was no reverend god, and Williams are not infallible.
The end result will change nothing, so my conclusion remains the same as it was when Senna died.
The saddest day for Formula 1.

PS this thread will solve nothing mods.

[Cold Fussion]

If there is no record of hard left angle, then we can assume Senna did not correct for the incoming wall(unlikely).

I wouldn't say it's unlikely. At some point a crash is inevitable, and at that point is probably best to try and slow down as much as possible and hit the wall as close to square as possible. From the onboard it does look as though this could be a possability because of the oversteer moment in a highspeed corners is likely to lead to you understeering off of the track, however it does look like went an awfully long time without turning the car which seems very unnatural.

[FoxHound]

If there is no record of hard left angle, then we can assume Senna did not correct for the incoming wall(unlikely).

however it does look like went an awfully long time without turning the car which seems very unnatural.

I agree.

Even Ukyo Katayama would've taken counter measures post oversteer correction.

[GitanesBlondes]

"Blame" is a very strong word and infers single causation. Most events like this are a result of several causations coming together to cause a perfect storm.

The investigation of Challenger disaster was a good example of understanding multiple causes leading to one catastrophic event.

I recently came across another example investigating a friendly fire incident over Iraq in April 1994 when two F-15 shot down two friendly helicopters:

I could have asked, "Why did they decide to shoot?" However, such a framing puts us squarely on a path that leads straight back to the individual decision maker, away from potentially powerful contextual features and right back into the jaws of the fundamental attribution error. "Why did they decide to shoot?" quickly becomes "Why did they make the wrong decision?" Hence, the attribution falls squarely onto the shoulders of the decision maker and away from potent situation factors that influence action. Framing the individual-level puzzle as a question of meaning rather than deciding shifts the emphasis away from individual decision makers toward a point somewhere "out there" where context and individual action overlap.... Such a reframing "from decision making to sensemaking" opened my eyes to the possibility that, given the circumstances, even / could have made the same "dumb mistake." This disturbing revelation, one that I was in no way looking for, underscores the importance of initially framing such senseless tragedies as "good people struggling to make sense," rather than as "bad ones making poor decisions"

Snook, S. 2001. Friendly Fire. Princeton University, Princeton, NJ. (pp. 206-2)

So in the context of Senna's death we have the FIA banning ride height, a track that had not been updated for the speed of the cars, car safety that had not been updated for the speed, a car that might possibly have been sensitive to ride height, drivers having preferred set ups turned out to be high risk, design teams who didn't fully understand the risks, etc etc. In a nutshell, an awful lot of people set the context for that race, and each had a role (aka blame) in the three major accidents that resulted in 2 fatalities.

Well put.

[GitanesBlondes]

If there is no record of hard left angle, then we can assume Senna did not correct for the incoming wall(unlikely).

however it does look like went an awfully long time without turning the car which seems very unnatural.

I agree.

Even Ukyo Katayama would've taken counter measures post oversteer correction.

How much room do you think there was from the edge of the track to the wall?

[GitanesBlondes]

If there is no record of hard left angle, then we can assume Senna did not correct for the incoming wall(unlikely).

I wouldn't say it's unlikely. At some point a crash is inevitable, and at that point is probably best to try and slow down as much as possible and hit the wall as close to square as possible. From the onboard it does look as though this could be a possability because of the oversteer moment in a highspeed corners is likely to lead to you understeering off of the track, however it does look like went an awfully long time without turning the car which seems very unnatural.

The whole thing unfolded extremely quickly.

The Senna film had this way of slowing down time and space, by building everything up for that moment. Try watching the live BBC broadcast, and you'll see how quickly the entire thing folded once all of the emotion stirring is removed. You are in the actual moment as it happened. In fact, they were never onboard with Senna on lap 6 or 7 at all. A pity I have no way to post videos on here as I would put the thing up here for people to see.

[FoxHound]

Senna corrected the oversteer 0.1 seconds after it occured.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvq0c2-O5y8[/youtube]

Human reaction time is around 0.150 to 0.300 seconds. Most driver's can feel when something is just about to happen in terms of car behaviour, as "driving by the seat of your pant's"...or intuition. Therefore catching a slide before it happens or, correcting car behaviour to get desired corner trajectory are behaviours common to talented drivers.
Would you agree?

Given he reacted so quickly to correct the oversteer, I would presume the driver would at least have tried some evasive action as a last resort after this. There is a factual precedent here after all.
Mind you, I'm not suggesting for 1 second Senna could have saved it. I'm merely pointing out that the cars trajectory did not change after the oversteer correction. That does seem strange to me, does it to you?

Did the driver give up and buckle down?
Did he input steering action to no avail?


What do you think/suggest happened in that final second?

[timbo]

The whole thing unfolded extremely quickly.

The Senna film had this way of slowing down time and space, by building everything up for that moment. Try watching the live BBC broadcast, and you'll see how quickly the entire thing folded once all of the emotion stirring is removed. You are in the actual moment as it happened. In fact, they were never onboard with Senna on lap 6 or 7 at all. A pity I have no way to post videos on here as I would put the thing up here for people to see.

But this happened to a racing driver during the race and to Senna out of all racing drivers. And he apparently had enough time to lift off and slam brakes. Why not try to steer away as much as possible?

[GitanesBlondes]

The whole thing unfolded extremely quickly.

The Senna film had this way of slowing down time and space, by building everything up for that moment. Try watching the live BBC broadcast, and you'll see how quickly the entire thing folded once all of the emotion stirring is removed. You are in the actual moment as it happened. In fact, they were never onboard with Senna on lap 6 or 7 at all. A pity I have no way to post videos on here as I would put the thing up here for people to see.

But this happened to a racing driver during the race and to Senna out of all racing drivers. And he apparently had enough time to lift off and slam brakes. Why not try to steer away as much as possible?

Even the best of us get caught by surprise, and don't do things we "think" we should have done...or do what turns out to be the incorrect thing, even though it is thought to be the correct thing in the moment.

[timbo]

Even the best of us get caught by surprise, and don't do things we "think" we should have done...or do what turns out to be the incorrect thing, even though it is thought to be the correct thing in the moment.

He definitely wasn't caught by surprise as he applied correct reactions with throttle and brakes.

[tpe]

What I do remember, very, very, very clearly, was the SOUND of the impact. And the fact that somehow I **knew** he was dead as soon as I saw the car. Anyway, I believe that we all agree to the basic element: A series of errors lead to those deaths. I would really like to see, some time in the future, the actual data. I still don't want to believe that either Williams destroyed the ECU of the car, or that the ECU was actually destroyed by the impact. In Williams destroyed the ECU, I hope that they do have a copy of the data.

[langwadt]

Here's another two incidents attributed to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un1FtWgTOx8

And they look nothing like Senna's

Zonda and Villeneuve cars oversteer. Senna's car understeered.

Senna clearly oversteered first but caught it, had he not it would probably have looked similar

judging from the brown trail the bottom plank scrapes the track all the time through eau rouge (raidillon)

[sennafan24]

"Blame" is a very strong word and infers single causation. Most events like this are a result of several causations coming together to cause a perfect storm.

I can agree on that. Maybe the event started from a "single "causation" as you put it, that caused several causations to create the event in question. No one ever singles out one singular reason for a individual causing a crime, that is another event that usually occurs due to several variables.

Personally I believe it was the steering column, however I have heard several other theories that are equally as plausible. The steering column breaking and other factors being involved is something I am very open to.

[GitanesBlondes]

Even the best of us get caught by surprise, and don't do things we "think" we should have done...or do what turns out to be the incorrect thing, even though it is thought to be the correct thing in the moment.

He definitely wasn't caught by surprise as he applied correct reactions with throttle and brakes.

I don't know, I see it as surprise considering there was no reason for him to expect anything out of the ordinary to occur there.

Sure his reaction times were fast enough to attempt to do something (no matter how unsuccessful it was) before impact.