More Impressive Win?

[Gerhard Berger]

You're missing one massive detail (well, two related ones): the rain
Not only did Vettel win in 'the great equalizer', the rain.
But he did so with a dry weather set-up.
Any win with a wrong set-up is impressive, but even more so for a rookie in a midfield car.

Vettel age 21, 5th car racing season
Maldonado age 27, 9th car racing season

As for most impressive wins ever, there are so many, trying to put one over the other would just

"To be totally frank these days there is not really a wet set-up anymore. It is difficult, as from Saturday to Sunday you are not allowed to change anything. There are a couple of things that yes, if you could guarantee 100 per cent wet running, you would go for it, but it is not a massive change anyway." - Sebastian Vettel, 2011.

[Gerhard Berger]

But wait, everybody on here says that the 2012 Ferrari was awful and Alonso performed a miracle to fight for the championship. If Maldonado could only just beat a rubbish car, it wasn't an impressive win.

Ok, piss taking aside, I don't think it was impressive as Vettel because the tyres played such a factor in 2012, hence why the pecking order for the first 8 races was so crazy and elevated a 5th/6th place at best Williams to the top of the standings.

Just got lucky for me.

Vettel won in 2008 by performing on Saturday and then again on Sunday in awful conditions.

Erm Maldonado performed on Saturday and Sunday too.

The Williams performance was not a one off by any means. Maldonado also qualified very high up at Valencia, Singapore and Spa, but his race at those tracks were compromised for a variety of reasons. Easy to put it down to the tyres, but it was clear that the Williams (just like the Sauber) was a good car at a number of tracks that year.

Also worth noting that while Maldonado qualified 2nd, his team mate was no where. Vettel qualified on pole but his team mate was 4th.

[mnmracer]

You're missing one massive detail (well, two related ones): the rain
Not only did Vettel win in 'the great equalizer', the rain.
But he did so with a dry weather set-up.
Any win with a wrong set-up is impressive, but even more so for a rookie in a midfield car.

Vettel age 21, 5th car racing season
Maldonado age 27, 9th car racing season

As for most impressive wins ever, there are so many, trying to put one over the other would just

"To be totally frank these days there is not really a wet set-up anymore. It is difficult, as from Saturday to Sunday you are not allowed to change anything. There are a couple of things that yes, if you could guarantee 100 per cent wet running, you would go for it, but it is not a massive change anyway." - Sebastian Vettel, 2011.

Good to see you taking a quote 3 years after the event we're talking about.

[Gerhard Berger]

You're missing one massive detail (well, two related ones): the rain
Not only did Vettel win in 'the great equalizer', the rain.
But he did so with a dry weather set-up.
Any win with a wrong set-up is impressive, but even more so for a rookie in a midfield car.

Vettel age 21, 5th car racing season
Maldonado age 27, 9th car racing season

As for most impressive wins ever, there are so many, trying to put one over the other would just

"To be totally frank these days there is not really a wet set-up anymore. It is difficult, as from Saturday to Sunday you are not allowed to change anything. There are a couple of things that yes, if you could guarantee 100 per cent wet running, you would go for it, but it is not a massive change anyway." - Sebastian Vettel, 2011.

Good to see you taking a quote 3 years after the event we're talking about.

Parc ferme still existed 3 years before.

[mnmracer]

"To be totally frank these days there is not really a wet set-up anymore. It is difficult, as from Saturday to Sunday you are not allowed to change anything. There are a couple of things that yes, if you could guarantee 100 per cent wet running, you would go for it, but it is not a massive change anyway." - Sebastian Vettel, 2011.

Good to see you taking a quote 3 years after the event we're talking about.

Parc ferme still existed 3 years before.

Vettel says parc ferme is what makes it difficult, he does not say parc ferme is the reason that there is not really a wet set-up anymore.

[iotar__]

The only remarkable thing I found about Maldonado's 2012 win, was that he was able to keep himself under control for the duration of the entire grand prix. Beyond that, it doesn't hold a candle to any of the examples Ciro has given us in this topic. The stars aligned perfectly in Barcelona in honor of Sir Frank's 70th birthday.

One race victory I think deserves an honorable mention is Jim Clark's win at Zandvoort 1967, with the debut of the Lotus-Cosworth 49.

Why?

Jimmy had not even driven the car till it showed up at Zandvoort. It's difficult to put in real terms what a stark departure the 49 was from anything in existence at that point in time. Reliability was unknown. To learn how drive the car over the first 10 to 15 laps before dropping the hammer to take victory was something else.

How about qualifying? How about pace when it mattered? How about composure while leading and having Alonso behind. Not being impressed with at least nailing the lap against many opponents is a sign of heavy bias against a driver, nothing more nothing less.

[munudeges]

The only remarkable thing I found about Maldonado's 2012 win, was that he was able to keep himself under control for the duration of the entire grand prix.

Maldonado is in the same bracket as Grosjean. Looks fast up to a certain point but you will always, and I mean always, get mistakes and crashes that will cost you. That's how certain people seem to get fooled time and again with them, but the results are always the same.

One race victory I think deserves an honorable mention is Jim Clark's win at Zandvoort 1967, with the debut of the Lotus-Cosworth 49.

There was one victory for Clark that never was that year, and it really is in the same bracket as Fangio's win at the Nurburgring or any other you care to mention. At Monza, more than a lap down, he swept into the lead only for the fuel pumps to fail to pick up enough fuel at the end. He wasn't happy.

[Jonnycraig]

Button Montreal 2011. That was a impressive win!

He crashed into everything but the safety car that day.

[GitanesBlondes]

The only remarkable thing I found about Maldonado's 2012 win, was that he was able to keep himself under control for the duration of the entire grand prix. Beyond that, it doesn't hold a candle to any of the examples Ciro has given us in this topic. The stars aligned perfectly in Barcelona in honor of Sir Frank's 70th birthday.

One race victory I think deserves an honorable mention is Jim Clark's win at Zandvoort 1967, with the debut of the Lotus-Cosworth 49.

Why?

Jimmy had not even driven the car till it showed up at Zandvoort. It's difficult to put in real terms what a stark departure the 49 was from anything in existence at that point in time. Reliability was unknown. To learn how drive the car over the first 10 to 15 laps before dropping the hammer to take victory was something else.

How about qualifying? How about pace when it mattered? How about composure while leading and having Alonso behind. Not being impressed with at least nailing the lap against many opponents is a sign of heavy bias against a driver, nothing more nothing less.

My issue with Maldonado's win, is it was simply a little too coincidental for me to ever feel comfortable with it fully. For myself, what has cheapened every race victory over the last few seasons can be summed up with one word - Pirelli. The FW-34 was a solid car, and yes Maldonado did turn in a few good qualifying performances in 2012, but he never had the race pace to make any of them stick. As munudeges pointed out, the mistakes and crashes are what prevent him from ever being more than what you say. He's quick when everything is in his favor, but too prone to ever be consistent. Barcelona was an anomaly when you look at his overall record in F1. He's the Venezuelan Andrea de Cesaris, and much like Andrea who had significant Marlboro backing, Pastor's PDVSA backing is what keeps him on the grid. For those who don't recall or even know, Andrea could be blindingly fast on his day, but the mistakes and crashes were simply too numerous to ever take him seriously as a driver.

[Gerhard Berger]

Vettel says parc ferme is what makes it difficult, he does not say parc ferme is the reason that there is not really a wet set-up anymore.

Point is most teams (not just Torro Rosso) would have gone for a dry setup that weekend due to parc ferme.

[Gerhard Berger]

The only remarkable thing I found about Maldonado's 2012 win, was that he was able to keep himself under control for the duration of the entire grand prix.

Maldonado is in the same bracket as Grosjean. Looks fast up to a certain point but you will always, and I mean always, get mistakes and crashes that will cost you. That's how certain people seem to get fooled time and again with them, but the results are always the same.

People used to say the same thing about Vettel early in his career. With experience, Maldonado and Grosjean will reduce the number of crashes they are involved in. What they do need to work on is their consistency.

[Gerhard Berger]

My issue with Maldonado's win, is it was simply a little too coincidental for me to ever feel comfortable with it fully. For myself, what has cheapened every race victory over the last few seasons can be summed up with one word - Pirelli. The FW-34 was a solid car, and yes Maldonado did turn in a few good qualifying performances in 2012, but he never had the race pace to make any of them stick.

Not entirely true. He was on course for a podium in Singapore and Valencia, whilst he was taken out at the first corner at Spa. He definitely had the necessary race pace for wins in Singapore and Valencia, but anyway, that is irrelevant when judging what happened at Barcelona.

As munudeges pointed out, the mistakes and crashes are what prevent him from ever being more than what you say. He's quick when everything is in his favor, but too prone to ever be consistent. Barcelona was an anomaly when you look at his overall record in F1. He's the Venezuelan Andrea de Cesaris, and much like Andrea who had significant Marlboro backing, Pastor's PDVSA backing is what keeps him on the grid. For those who don't recall or even know, Andrea could be blindingly fast on his day, but the mistakes and crashes were simply too numerous to ever take him seriously as a driver.

This isn't about discussing Maldonado in general, it is about discussing his victory at Barcelona. Whilst he has been error prone at other races, he did pretty much everything (apart from the start) perfectly at Barcelona.

[munudeges]

Drivers who are good enough show it pretty much immediately. The notion that somehow a few more years of experience makes a difference, and then a few more when the mistakes still happen, is a myth.

When the chips are down someone like Maldonado is always going to drop it, and after so many years a few more won't make any difference. Ditto with Grosjean. Looks fast, but you always get him driving into someone for no apparent reason and dropping it as he did yesterday. Not going to change.

[Gerhard Berger]

You talk like they have been in the sport for many years. Maldonando has just over 2.5 years worth of experience, and Grosjean has approximately 2 years.

I'll still use the example of Vettel. In his first few years, he was crashing with Kubica/Webber/Button and making other errors. Whitmarsh even called him crash kid. Now look at him...

[GitanesBlondes]

You talk like they have been in the sport for many years. Maldonando has just over 2.5 years worth of experience, and Grosjean has approximately 2 years.

I'll still use the example of Vettel. In his first few years, he was crashing with Kubica/Webber/Button and making other errors. Whitmarsh even called him crash kid. Now look at him...

However, Maldonado also received a lifetime ban from racing in Monaco for nearly killing a marshal some years back. Yes, the ban was rescinded due to his PDVSA backing pulling strings, but the guy has had checkered past well before F1.

Edit: Just wanted to add a mention in an article about that. That's why comparing Vettel to him is pointless regarding crashing in my opinion.

Bild newspaper recalls that the Venezuelan, who defied his ‘pay driver’ critics by winning for Williams in Spain two weeks ago, was actually banned after an horror incident on the streets of Monte Carlo seven years ago.

Racing in the Renault World Series in 2005, the 27-year-old ignored yellow flags before striking and severely injuring a marshal.

Organisers of the Monaco grand prix reacted by banning Maldonado from the street circuit for life.

Germany’s Bild revealed that Maldonado’s wealthy father intervened, promising to pay for the marshal’s recovery and rehabilitation from a broken back.

That intervention saved Maldonado’s future Formula One career, as no team would hire a regular driver that cannot participate in the sport’s most famous race.

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/ ... in_Monaco/