The weight limits need changed.

[turbof1]

Mark Webber says in the linked article that he is about 6% body fat, so I was 2% off.

You were actually 33% off, that's quite a lot!


OT: I think no-one made the min weight regulation with super skinny drivers on their mind, so changing it isn't a biggie.
An error isn't a mistake if you correct it.

Agreed. But IMO the minimum weight limit is too much focussed on the car. Even if the car has to be 1000kg, a smaller driver will still have the benefit of a lower CoG.

[xpensive]

X...You handing me set lines trying to get me in trouble? ..not many ladies with that relation...HEHEHE

It was a looong time ago anyways...

[Spacepace]

Btw, has anyone ever seen a race-horse jockey more that 5'-3''? An outrageous injustice to tall people isn't it?

Why are you so fixed on height when it´s weight this thread is about?

If I'm not completely mistaken, for equally fit people like F1 drivers, there should be a direct connection between the two?

With the xception of Vettel of course, his 58 kg over 176 cm is remarkable, not many ladies with that relation.

That is not that remarkable

[ringo]

Personally I am in the favour of the second option. I think that seat ballast idea is brilliant. It should be done in the way in which the COG of the driver-seat combination would be defined and the driver weight wouldn't be an issue.

I don't think it will be fair to the smaller driver. The Moment of inertia will be greater for the ballasted seat because that mass is to the outside of the body, further from the center of the car.
While for the heavier driver, his mass will be centralized.

It really isn't worth the effort to tamper with what we have now. I like the variation and also the strengths and weaknesses that the sport has.
The small/average guys have to deal with rejection in other sports; which 90% of the time require a big guy. Might as well let them have their sport.

I myself, I guess would fall in the median range. 5'9" around 67 kg. I could lose some body fat I guess. I'm kinda surprised Vettel is under 60kg all the same. I'm quite slim, and I do exercise 3 times a week. 60kg I would look like a scarecrow. Guess they have muscle where the need it alone.

[langwadt]

Btw, has anyone ever seen a race-horse jockey more that 5'-3''? An outrageous injustice to tall people isn't it?

Why are you so fixed on height when it´s weight this thread is about?

If I'm not completely mistaken, for equally fit people like F1 drivers, there should be a direct connection between the two?

With the xception of Vettel of course, his 58 kg over 176 cm is remarkable, not many ladies with that relation.

I'm same size as Vettel and has been since forever and I've never been starving

as for the ladies I think that depends on what part of the world you are in

[JimClarkFan]

I don't mean to come across as getting to you btw.

Not at all, I think i was a bit too adverserial myself.

It's definitely not my area of expertise anymore, but wouldn't the 3% TBF body builder in the photo you posted have like 40-50kg (or maybe more?) of muscle, meaning that his 3% TBF is actually under-representative of his actual TBF (which would be a higher percentage if he had less muscle mass). That's what I probably should have said.

I can agree that Webber may have a higher TBF than he quoted, but then again I've seen Jenson Button also say he has 6%. If they are true to their words regarding their workout regimes and diets, then I would be a bit surprised if they weren't in single digits for their TBF. As you said though, you can't accurately tell if someone is lean from a photo.

Yes he certainly would have a higher percentage if he had less muscle. I think the guy I posted is not the best example, I forget I have been doing this stuff for many years and I have my eye in for it.

I think a more appropriate picture would to be post someone with low % bodyfat who has similar measurements to Mark. That way you could get a imagine the bodycomposition it takes to be 6ft 1, 74/75kg and have a bodyfat of 3-4%. It so happens that I found such a person:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dtaWqzV6d7M/T ... 5%2Bkg.jpg

^that guy is around 6ft, 73.5 kilos, around 5-6%
Notice how he is not soft anywhere, to be 5-6% bodyfat, and to be 74ish kilos means you have to be carrying around a decent amount of muscle mass. Since Mark or Jenson isn't close to that I find it hard to believe their claims.

Of course I could have been lied to

One final thing, some guy earlier said muscle is 3 times more dense that fat. That is not correct, the density of muscle is 1.06grams per ml, whereas the density of fat is 0.99grams per ml. Muscle is denser but not by much.

[turbof1]

I don't mean to come across as getting to you btw.

Not at all, I think i was a bit too adverserial myself.

It's definitely not my area of expertise anymore, but wouldn't the 3% TBF body builder in the photo you posted have like 40-50kg (or maybe more?) of muscle, meaning that his 3% TBF is actually under-representative of his actual TBF (which would be a higher percentage if he had less muscle mass). That's what I probably should have said.

I can agree that Webber may have a higher TBF than he quoted, but then again I've seen Jenson Button also say he has 6%. If they are true to their words regarding their workout regimes and diets, then I would be a bit surprised if they weren't in single digits for their TBF. As you said though, you can't accurately tell if someone is lean from a photo.

Yes he certainly would have a higher percentage if he had less muscle. I think the guy I posted is not the best example, I forget I have been doing this stuff for many years and I have my eye in for it.

I think a more appropriate picture would to be post someone with low % bodyfat who has similar measurements to Mark. That way you could get a imagine the bodycomposition it takes to be 6ft 1, 74/75kg and have a bodyfat of 3-4%. It so happens that I found such a person:

I think I have more or less the same frame as Mark. I'll take one tomorrow (everything for science huh). I don't think I have that low bodyfat, and to be honest, you are not going to find anyone soon who has.

[feni_remmen]

This discussion is insane.

All we are now saying is that forcing the teams to centralize driver specific ballast around the seat area would help neutralize the natural advantage that lighter drivers gain. I would support a COG biased implementation of this, but just making them put in the seat is a start...

Nico Hulkenberg is under the weight regulations, but the teams obviously deem the ballast advantages too important. When he is in the car that's 10kg less for the engineers to move around.

This isn't about making it a spec series. I would expect everybody here who supports driver weight equalisation, will be against dumbing down F1 engineering and against moves towards more technical clampdowns...

I'd much rather f1 find the fastest driver rather than the lightest.

If f1 is a sport, then we should cherish every opportunity to equalize unfair (non-technical) competitive advantages. After 30 years of watching nearly every race, I don't believe it is a sport. Anyway, this problem has always existed. Mark Webber railed against it 5 years ago. Alain Prost gained an advantage over Nigel Mansell in the same way, it's just that there were many more technical advantages to muddy the water, nobody cared too much.
Analogies to other sports are pointless.
How f1technical ends up having a discussion about BMI, I don't know.

That is all...

[hollus]

Right now there is an allowance for each driver to weigh up to 80kg (including driver equipment). If the driver is lighter than this, the teams are required to place ballast anywhere in the car to the value of this difference.

That's news to me. Source?

[JimClarkFan]

Right now there is an allowance for each driver to weigh up to 80kg (including driver equipment). If the driver is lighter than this, the teams are required to place ballast anywhere in the car to the value of this difference.

That's news to me. Source?

And me, I was under the impression that the car is weighed after the race, and the weight of the driver is added to the car which must equal a minimum weight

[langwadt]

Right now there is an allowance for each driver to weigh up to 80kg (including driver equipment). If the driver is lighter than this, the teams are required to place ballast anywhere in the car to the value of this difference.

That's news to me. Source?

And me, I was under the impression that the car is weighed after the race, and the weight of the driver is added to the car which must equal a minimum weight

yep, but I do think at one point rules were so that they were only weighed at the start of the season and that was then used to set the minimum weight for the car+driver, but of course then they could do the opposite of boxers etc.

[Ciro Pabón]

Right now there is an allowance for each driver to weigh up to 80kg (including driver equipment). If the driver is lighter than this, the teams are required to place ballast anywhere in the car to the value of this difference.

That's news to me. Source?

Oh, for the love of Pete.

hollus, you're an unbeliever. Well done, mate.

Now, one of my short posts, people.

Everybody must read technical regulations before posting, as the forum rules state (well, they should... it's incredible how Tomba failed in that).

If you post in a site called "The little engine that could.com" you probably want to read "The little engine that could" before posting about the Little Engine that could. Now, a clue: this site is called F1Technical.com.

This is the second thread where I see posts wandering aimlessly about weight and I've been here five minutes. What's wrong with your posts, people?

You MUST find the twenty minutes of your life that requires this reading. Apologies to all those that have read them for stating the obvious:

Formula One 2013 Technical Regulations

There is a link to regulations in the Development page of this site. There is a page in this site, here, devoted to regulations, by the way.

Anyway, here is your source, verse and chapter, which should be the basis for this thread, ehem:

ARTICLE 4 : WEIGHT
4.1 Minimum weight :
The weight of the car, without fuel, must not be less than 642kg at all times during the Event.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, it will be weighed on a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.
4.2 Weight distribution :
For 2012 and 2013 only, the weight applied on the front and rear wheels must not be less than 292kg and 343kg respectively at all times during the qualifying practice session.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, it will be weighed on a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate.
4.3 Weight of tyres :
The weight limits specified in Articles 4.1 and 4.2 will be adjusted according to any differences (rounded up to the nearest 1kg) between the total set and individual axle set weights respectively of the 2012 and 2013 dry-weather tyres.
4.4 Ballast :
Ballast can be used provided it is secured in such a way that tools are required for its removal. It must be possible to fix seals if deemed necessary by the FIA technical delegate.
4.5 Adding during the race :
With the exception of compressed gases, no substance may be added to the car during the race. If it becomes necessary to replace any part of the car during the race, the new part must not weigh any more than the original part.

- "Oh, but then you have the Sporting Regulations, Ciro!" you will say.

Sigh, I can hear you before you say it.

There you go: Formula One 2013 Sporting Regulations

Verse and chapter, dearly beloved brothers and sisters:

26) WEIGHING
26.1 a) During the qualifying practice session cars will be weighed as follows :
i) The FIA will install weighing equipment in the first pit garage (the FIA garage) which will be used for the weighing procedure.
ii) Cars taking part in Q1 and Q2 will be selected at random to undergo the weighing procedure.
iii) When signalled to do so the driver will proceed directly to the FIA garage and stop his engine.
iv) The car will then be weighed with driver and the result given to the driver or a team representative in writing.
v) At the end of the qualifying session all cars which took part in Q3 will be weighed. If a driver wishes to leave his car before it is weighed he must ask the technical delegate to weigh him in order that this weight may be added to that of the car.
vi) If the car is unable to reach the FIA garage under its own power it will be placed under the exclusive control of the marshals who will take the car to be weighed.
vii) A car or driver may not leave the FIA garage without the consent of the FIA technical delegate.
viii) If a car stops on the circuit and the driver leaves the car, he must go to the FIA garage immediately on his return to the pit lane in order for his weight to be established.
b) After the race every classified car will be weighed. If a driver wishes to leave his car before it is weighed he must ask the technical delegate to weigh him in order that this weight may be added to that of the car.
c) The relevant car may be excluded should its weight be less than that specified in Article 4.1 of the Technical Regulations when weighed under a) or b) above, save where the deficiency in weight results from the accidental loss of a component of the car.
d) No substance may be added to, placed on, or removed from a car after it has been selected for weighing or has finished the race or during the weighing procedure. (Except by a scrutineer when acting in his official capacity).
e) No one other than scrutineers and officials may enter or remain in the FIA garage without the specific permission of the FIA technical delegate.
26.2 In the event of any breach of these provisions for the weighing of cars the stewards may drop the driver such number of grid positions as they consider appropriate or exclude him from the race.

I can already see Xpensive saying:

- "Oh, c'mon, Ciro, have you read the annexes to the Sporting Code and the annexes to the Technical Regulations?".

Darn, yes, I have, mate. There you have them: Appendix to the 2013 Formula One Technical Regulations... and we all know this season there were no appendixes to the 2013 Formula One Sporting Regulations, you cheeky monkey, do not try to trick me.

So, no, there is nothing in the rules about the 80 kilograms that feni_remmen states.

- "And what about the technical notices they publish regularly?", X would say.

- "Arrgh", would be my answer.

Well, then it might be. I have read most of them but I confess these days I'm more into working, you lazy person.

So, my answer would be this: "Summing up, dear X, I have never heard of it, which, of course, doesn't mean feni_remmen's wrong, but is widely known that I'm never wrong".



Actually, many years ago, I once thought I was wrong, but then I found I was right, so I was wrong about being wrong.

[xpensive]

...
I can already see Xpensive saying:

- "Oh, c'mon, Ciro, have you read the annexes to the Sporting Code and the annexes to the Technical Regulations?".
...

Huh?
I lost the thread of this thread with the bodyfat percentage. But I have to admit that you learn a lot from this forum nowadays,
not necessarily about intriguing technical issues on a formula one car, but we should widen our often too nerdy scope here, no?

[ringo]

I'd much rather f1 find the fastest driver rather than the lightest.

That's an oxymoron.

What do you consider makes a driver fast?
His ability to operate the car, or the ability he gives the car when he's operating it?

If i weighed 40kg and had the reactions of a sloth, but my car could attain the COG never before in F1 which equated to ridiculous amounts of lateral grip and a fast lap time.
Wouldnt you consider that i still stopped the clocked lower than my team mate who could have the reflexes of a house fly on cocaine but weighed 90kg which ultimately reduced the grip capabilities of his car and lead to a slower time?

Who's the faster driver?

By definition the first driver is the faster one. He's making an equal car go much faster around the track and that's what the team principal wants. Your ability is to make cars go fast, it's not what you have on the inside; things like reflex and pedal force and feel.
Newey said it himself, the perfect driver for his car weighs 45kg. I don't think he cares much for individual traits like reflex.

[Gerhardsa]

I don't think it's really an issue. Why exactly is hamilton moaning?

Sebastian Vettel
Height = 1.76 m
Weight = 58 kg

Lewis Hamilton
1.74 m
71 kg

Do you know nothing about physiology and genetics?? You make it sound like Hamilton could just loose some weight if he could be bothered.

Its not like he is out of shape. But some men have more natural muscle mass and bone density.

There's no way bones alone will add SO much weight. And why then is vettel always the most relaxed and conditioned driver in pre-podium backstage, despite being the lightest driver of all? I don't buy it.

In that case you are the most misinformed person in the world.
I weigh more than most of my friends witht he same type of height. some by almost 15kgs.
Whilst i am 1.79cm, my weight is 88kg, and with a BF of about 11%, which is less body fat than most would have. My cousing on the other hand, is exactly my height, and his weight is 81 although he has a very nice beer belly. Bone density and muscle thickness has everything to do with it mate.