More Impressive Win?

[wesley123]

You talk like they have been in the sport for many years. Maldonando has just over 2.5 years worth of experience, and Grosjean has approximately 2 years.

I'll still use the example of Vettel. In his first few years, he was crashing with Kubica/Webber/Button and making other errors. Whitmarsh even called him crash kid. Now look at him...

The difference with Vettel is that he actually matured, he actually grown, while both Grosjean and Maldonado still do the same mistakes they made in their rookie years, and even before that did in GP2. If they still are not able to drive normally on a regular basis after 2+ years in F1 and a overly long period of time in GP2 then it isn't going to come to them anymore.

[Gerhard Berger]

You talk like they have been in the sport for many years. Maldonando has just over 2.5 years worth of experience, and Grosjean has approximately 2 years.

I'll still use the example of Vettel. In his first few years, he was crashing with Kubica/Webber/Button and making other errors. Whitmarsh even called him crash kid. Now look at him...

The difference with Vettel is that he actually matured, he actually grown, while both Grosjean and Maldonado still do the same mistakes they made in their rookie years, and even before that did in GP2. If they still are not able to drive normally on a regular basis after 2+ years in F1 and a overly long period of time in GP2 then it isn't going to come to them anymore.

Vettel only really cut out the mistakes after 3 years of being in F1. Maldonado and Grosjean have not been in F1 that long.

[mnmracer]

You talk like they have been in the sport for many years. Maldonando has just over 2.5 years worth of experience, and Grosjean has approximately 2 years.

I'll still use the example of Vettel. In his first few years, he was crashing with Kubica/Webber/Button and making other errors. Whitmarsh even called him crash kid. Now look at him...

The difference with Vettel is that he actually matured, he actually grown, while both Grosjean and Maldonado still do the same mistakes they made in their rookie years, and even before that did in GP2. If they still are not able to drive normally on a regular basis after 2+ years in F1 and a overly long period of time in GP2 then it isn't going to come to them anymore.

Vettel only really cut out the mistakes after 3 years of being in F1. Maldonado and Grosjean have not been in F1 that long.

Sebastian Vettel was 20 years old, in only his 5th year in racing cars, when he debuted.
Lewis Hamilton was 22 years old, in only his 7th year in racing cars, when he debuted.
Pastor Maldonado was 26 years old, in his 10th year in racing cars, when he debuted.
Romain Grosjean was 26 years old, in his 10th year in racing cars, when he re-debuted.

[SectorOne]

The difference with Vettel is that he actually matured, he actually grown, while both Grosjean and Maldonado still do the same mistakes they made in their rookie years, and even before that did in GP2. If they still are not able to drive normally on a regular basis after 2+ years in F1 and a overly long period of time in GP2 then it isn't going to come to them anymore.

I don´t think it´s that clear cut. It´s different when you are at the front racing by yourself then being in a pack.
Hamilton showed in 2011 that --- can go wrong when you are stuck in the mid-field, even extremely stupid mistakes can happen.
Vettel showed a couple of times in 2012 that he´s not immune to mistakes either.

Now i´m not saying Maldonado and Grosjean don´t have a higher "hit-rate" but some of it can be explained by simply being in the --- as opposed to guys starting near the front where it´s less crowded.

[Jonnycraig]

Vettel says parc ferme is what makes it difficult, he does not say parc ferme is the reason that there is not really a wet set-up anymore.

Point is most teams (not just Torro Rosso) would have gone for a dry setup that weekend due to parc ferme.

Was the 'change of climactic conditions' proviso added on past 2008?

[Gerhard Berger]

Vettel says parc ferme is what makes it difficult, he does not say parc ferme is the reason that there is not really a wet set-up anymore.

Point is most teams (not just Torro Rosso) would have gone for a dry setup that weekend due to parc ferme.

Was the 'change of climactic conditions' proviso added on past 2008?

what?

[Jonnycraig]

Was the 'change of climactic conditions' proviso added on past 2008?

what?

If it is dry for qualifying and wet on race day there is a proviso in the Parc Ferme rules allowing teams to make changes based on a 'change in climactic conditions'.

[wesley123]

You talk like they have been in the sport for many years. Maldonando has just over 2.5 years worth of experience, and Grosjean has approximately 2 years.

I'll still use the example of Vettel. In his first few years, he was crashing with Kubica/Webber/Button and making other errors. Whitmarsh even called him crash kid. Now look at him...

The difference with Vettel is that he actually matured, he actually grown, while both Grosjean and Maldonado still do the same mistakes they made in their rookie years, and even before that did in GP2. If they still are not able to drive normally on a regular basis after 2+ years in F1 and a overly long period of time in GP2 then it isn't going to come to them anymore.

Vettel only really cut out the mistakes after 3 years of being in F1. Maldonado and Grosjean have not been in F1 that long.

They have been in GP2 for 4 years, doing the same crap they are doing now. There is a reason why they were in GP2 for that long, because they were not good enough for F1.

With Vettel, you have actually seen him improve over time(plus his reduced experience in single seaters before that). Grosjean and Maldonado are still pulling off the same stupid moves as they did with their debut and before that in their 4 years in GP2.

[munudeges]

It was immediately clear what Vettel was when people first saw him. When he was in a position to win, he won. You contrast that with Maldonado, or Grosjean for that matter, and whenever they are in a position to get a badly needed result they somehow contrive to throw it away - and that's the only thing they have done consistently.

Anyone who thinks Maldonado or Grosjean are going to turn into a Vettel with two or three years more experience just doesn't know what they're talking about frankly. These are not beginners who started karting last week.

You contrast that with Hulkenberg. He kept very good drivers behind him and at every stage he was calm and knew exactly what he was doing. No panic moves and chops across other drivers at the last second, he always thought ahead and knew exactly where he was going before he got there. Against Maldonado and Grosjean, or Perez for that matter, no comparison. Compare Hulkenberg's calm radio message exchange when he was under pressure with the panicky screaming from Grosjean. Again, no comparison.

Drivers like Maldonado, Grosjean and Perez simply don't have the presence of mind to be fast, race around other cars and have the mental capacity to think at the same time. The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result.

[flattyre]

There's something about Monza 2008 that's always bugged me. I watched it live, like many of us here. Yes, it was a very, very good drive by Vettel. But, Bourdais was also looking to do very well - he qualified 4th (0.9 seconds behind Vettel). But, he stalled on the grid, and when he rejoined the race he was a lap down and at the back of the pack. By the end of the race, he hadn't lost any ground to Vettel, and his fastest lap was 1.2 seconds faster.

I think to myself - had it been Vettel that stalled on the grid instead of Bourdais, would we have a different driver in the Red Bull...?

[mnmracer]

Vettel had already been signed before Monza, and despite what some people want you to believe, Vettel's been impressive for his whole Torro Rosso career, not just Monza.

[f1316]

Probably not the place for it (but not sure where is) but I still don't understand why it used to be possible to have a different setup that worked better in the wet and now it isn't? What exactly are the changes that mean this is no longer relevant?

For one thing, it seems the key these days is to warm up the inters, so wouldn't a higher dowforce setup help with this?