Greatness.... or not

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marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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Brawn never was a brilliant designer nor is he a brilliant manager at least when it comes to steering a ship as big as Honda or Mercedes.At Ferrari he was not the biggest fish in the pool -that was Todt -who joined Ferrari a long time before him (with recommendation from Niki Lauda...).
Brawn has serious experience in Formula 1 and maybe more important perhaps :he is seriously woven into the network of formula 1 with ties into FIA ,towards Bernies affairs and many many teams.
His unability to reach a proper consent with all parties last year and the somehow dodged PR produced in 3Years of Mercedes formula 1 has led to :Niki Lauda and wolfF joining those came on board because Brawn did not deliver the goods,no doubt about it.
I cannot see why any team would feel the urge to hire him for BIG money if there is no net advantage to be found .From outside it looks like Mercedes started to stagnate even before the ink on the sales contract was dry...mind you they had promised sponsorship and a championship contender car and team ....only to conclude after 2 years it was all not enough by a long shot ...you would not need to be an insider or a capacity in formula 1 to realise this.Only he wa the one to sell that fata morgana to DAI ....I don´t think any OEM or big team would need to make the same experience.
Trial and error sure is a way to approach a given task but in all honesty i have not the impression Brawns work at Mercedes was really anything special ..selling the lot to DAI sure was ...but that part may be accounted towards Fry I´d say.

sometimes I have the impression Brawn thought Schumacher could make it all happen for him ,as he did at Benneton and Ferrari.not realising that both Bennetton and Ferrari had Byrne as the technical leader who had the regs mastered and the BAR/Honda guys had not the same level -which If true really is a bit naive .(Schumacher these days is full of praise for the
rise in level of technical competence in recent time compared to the start says it pretty much ...Brawn had sold a empty hull to DAI)
Hamilton is by no means blowing away Rosberg these days in the same ways as Rosberg was not really blowing away Schumacher (apart from the mysterious reliability issues that plagued him in his time with Mercedes).

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
61
Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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I think you are giving Ross Brawn wayy to little credit there, marcush.

As if Brawn had zero influence in the Ferrari success years, and only was interesting to supposedly be the one that buddies FIA into 'secret' ferrari-race-staging? utter nonsense. :? :?
If all, indeed, Brawn has not shown in his career to be focused much on sponsorship deals and 'politics'. How on earth then would he be the one to pilot the Ferrari team that way? And niki lauda? Come on, he's a great champion, but that's where it ends. He's always talking into the media's ears and tells you what you want to hear, but as for actually bringing anything to the table except for media-attention - ??? I remember him on german RTL F1 TV interviews regularly, and it's always been the same boring answers and thoughts that did not add anything. I have great respect for Niki Lauda as a driver, but when he stepped away from the cockpit, that's where his qualities ended.
Lauda is a good media attention figure, and that's where he comes in play at Mercedes.
Mercedes stated clearly from the Benz board of direction that they 'demanded' success. They realised they probably thought a bit too easy 'just stepping in' by buying BrawnGP when it Championed its way trough the field in 2009. But it took Brawn years with Honda to reach that, it wasn't just a miracle thing. The revised 2009 rules [f1 car design] surely played into their hands, yes. And Mercedes must have realised that it wasn't working out they had hoped for back in 2010.
Schumacher at Mercedes was nothing but the 'brand promotion' Mercedes was looking for. They have a great driver in Rosberg, but Nico is not the brand that Mercedes desires.
Schumacher could bring that, just by his name alone - and they had the hope for him actually going for the win.
Unfortunately, Schumacher's age and motorcrash aftermath, and the fact the Mercedes 2010 car was simply the BGP002 - built for Button, not Schumacher, made it impossible for Schumacher to achieve the success of before.
Mercedes success of now is not thanks to Lauda or Wolff - it's the combination of people. Mercedes is harvesting the fruits of 'buying' themselves key figures for their desperate need to win.
Schumacher dissapointed - but Hamilton could bring the same 'interest' into the brand, but without the wear and age.
A business platform, again.

To think Brawn never was a brilliant figure is showing little respect for the man. If it's because there were other people around him that did good work, then the same goes for Adrian Newey, or Colin Chapman for that matter. Nobody can achieve anything purely on their own. That's why it's a TEAM.
Both at Benneton and at Ferrari brawn ushered in success, and one of his qualities is strategy.
RedBull even wanted Brawn for 2008 paired with Alonso, but Brawn opted for Honda instead.

Brawn worket at Williams at the very start of the williams outfit, I see zero reason to go back to that dying team.
If anything, the working atmosphere alone is no place for Ross. Williams is a place of chaos, they jump from idea to idea,
from supplier to supplier, from driver to driver, and the same goes for personnel. It's a total mess and they're not learning from their mistakes. Brawn would never go there because he'd have to reorganise so much there, it basically means it would be easier resurrecting BRAWNGP as a new team asking bernie for a 2014 or 2015 new team entry to replace the HRT grid spot - and he'd even make it work.

No, Brawn is among the F1 greats. Schumacher, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton. Brawn, Newey, Briatore, Chapman.
And he will be great with Mclaren. A new environment, good backing, a great business platform with great promise, without corporate breath of Mercedes steaming behind him. Ross Brawn was in his element with honda in 2008 and BrawnGP 2009, just as he was in his element at ferrari - because he had freedom and as he said himself 'clear-cut' position, without other things 'stressing' his mind. He'll get the same at McLaren - and because of that - Brawn and Mclaren 2015 will bring in another couple of years of success.
Mercedes is going to lose a great strategist now Brawn is leaving. And strategy is exactly what Mclaren has been missing out the past years. It is all win-win for Mclaren if you look at it.

The question will be then: with ross leaving, what will happen with Merc? They have plenty high-ranking 'officers' aboard, and it's kinda like you can only expect good results from that. Merc is battling for 2nd in the constructors championship,
so the corporate bosses at Merc are happy. They wanted a win - they got a bunch of 'em this year. I think Brawn feels his work there is done and its gotten crowded over there. It's totally Mercedes philosophy. Not a nessecarily 'suffocating' environment - just a bit too many people around. Will merc have a loss next year when Ross is out? most definately.
Not neccesarily regarding the car itself and the team itself - 2013 laborship will effect 2014 season still - but from the start, they'll miss the 'natural' strategic benefit's of Ross.
If Ross could start in Mclaren 2014 straight away - which i'd doubt - Mclaren will benefit there immediately.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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Manoah2u wrote: ...
No, Brawn is among the F1 greats. Schumacher, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton. Brawn, Newey, Briatore, Chapman.
...
Without comment.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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GitanesBlondes
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Joined: 30 Jul 2013, 20:16

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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Did he really just put Brawn on the same level as Colin Chapman? :lol:
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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i put hamilton and schumacher in the same sentence aswell. doesn't mean i think of hamilton and schumacher the same.
but they're both 'Greats'. so is brawn. so is chapman. doenst mean theyre 'similar'. or on the same 'level'.

don't change my words. just read. it says 'Greats'. nowhere 'same level'.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

Jonnycraig
Jonnycraig
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Joined: 12 Apr 2013, 20:48

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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Manoah2u wrote:i put hamilton and schumacher in the same sentence aswell. doesn't mean i think of hamilton and schumacher the same.
but they're both 'Greats'. so is brawn. so is chapman. doenst mean theyre 'similar'. or on the same 'level'.

don't change my words. just read. it says 'Greats'. nowhere 'same level'.
May I ask what Hamilton has achieved to make him an F1 great?

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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isn't fighting for the championship from your rookie start and actually becoming champion and constantly being at the very front enough? #-o Nigel Mansell only became WDC once, too. I concider him a 'great' aswell even though not mentioned.

but are we really going astray into some lousy discussion about who's great or not? This is where i hook off and will not join a useless discussion. it's about Ross Brawn leaving merc, not about whether Hamilton is great or not.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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GitanesBlondes
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Joined: 30 Jul 2013, 20:16

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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Manoah2u wrote:i put hamilton and schumacher in the same sentence aswell. doesn't mean i think of hamilton and schumacher the same.
but they're both 'Greats'. so is brawn. so is chapman. doenst mean theyre 'similar'. or on the same 'level'.

don't change my words. just read. it says 'Greats'. nowhere 'same level'.
Honest question, what is it that Brawn did that makes him worthy of being listed with Colin Chapman?

Illegal barge boards at Malaysia '99?

Getting a favorable ruling on the double diffuser (a Super Aguri creation) in 2009?

Being suspected of running illegal software in 1994?
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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GitanesBlondes wrote:
Manoah2u wrote:i put hamilton and schumacher in the same sentence aswell. doesn't mean i think of hamilton and schumacher the same.
but they're both 'Greats'. so is brawn. so is chapman. doenst mean theyre 'similar'. or on the same 'level'.

don't change my words. just read. it says 'Greats'. nowhere 'same level'.
Honest question, what is it that Brawn did that makes him worthy of being listed with Colin Chapman?

Illegal barge boards at Malaysia '99?

Getting a favorable ruling on the double diffuser (a Super Aguri creation) in 2009?

Being suspected of running illegal software in 1994?
#-o #-o =D> =D> =D> for missing the point completely.

+ if we want to go for suspicions:

read this. nobody's without flaw.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... apman.html

or how about jochen rindt and colin chapman?
how about the delorean 'affair'?

can argue indefinately here, not going to do it, i'll leave it at that > and repeat:
don't change my words. just read. it says 'Greats'. nowhere 'same level'.
thank you.


back to Brawn + Merc please
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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GitanesBlondes
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Joined: 30 Jul 2013, 20:16

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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You call him a "great", so I am asking you what it is exactly he did that qualifies him as such.

Schumacher had a history of winning without Brawn at Ferrari. Remember those 3 wins he took in 1996 in a car that was at a significant disadvantage due to John Barnard's interpretation of the side impact rules?

Brawn played his part, but far more instrumental at Ferrari were Todt, Byrne, and Schumacher. Those three mattered far more to the success Ferrari achieved than Brawn ever did.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Pup
Pup
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Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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Personally, I'm more interested in the inclusion of Flavio on that list. :?

Flavio, Champman, Newey...one of these things is not like the other.

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GitanesBlondes
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Joined: 30 Jul 2013, 20:16

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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Manoah2u wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:
Manoah2u wrote:i put hamilton and schumacher in the same sentence aswell. doesn't mean i think of hamilton and schumacher the same.
but they're both 'Greats'. so is brawn. so is chapman. doenst mean theyre 'similar'. or on the same 'level'.

don't change my words. just read. it says 'Greats'. nowhere 'same level'.
Honest question, what is it that Brawn did that makes him worthy of being listed with Colin Chapman?

Illegal barge boards at Malaysia '99?

Getting a favorable ruling on the double diffuser (a Super Aguri creation) in 2009?

Being suspected of running illegal software in 1994?
#-o #-o =D> =D> =D> for missing the point completely.

+ if we want to go for suspicions:

read this. nobody's without flaw.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... apman.html

or how about jochen rindt and colin chapman?
how about the delorean 'affair'?

can argue indefinately here, not going to do it, i'll leave it at that > and repeat:
don't change my words. just read. it says 'Greats'. nowhere 'same level'.
thank you.


back to Brawn + Merc please
Since you edited that post, let me reply to the additions.

My reason for mentioning those things about Brawn is because it's to show that on the technical development side of things, Brawn has operated in a very grey area of the rulebook. There's nothing he did that even remotely compares to the innovation Chapman was known for.

Regarding Chapman and Delorean, I was strictly focusing on F1 happenings, not events outside of F1.

What about Jochen Rindt and Colin? Are you referring to Monza 1970 where Jochen didn't have his straps fully secured for comfort purposes? Or that he told the mechanics to take off the wings on the Lotus 72 even though the 72 had not yet been tested without the wings? If that was an effort to put the blame on Colin, try and remember the other part of the story that doesn't fit in with the Chapman murdered drivers narrative that people seem to be so fond of tossing up.

You're the one who made the great comment. I am asking you to clarify it with substance instead of trying to run up some Daimler sponsored PR puff piece.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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GitanesBlondes wrote:You call him a "great", so I am asking you what it is exactly he did that qualifies him as such.

Schumacher had a history of winning without Brawn at Ferrari. Remember those 3 wins he took in 1996 in a car that was at a significant disadvantage due to John Barnard's interpretation of the side impact rules?

Brawn played his part, but far more instrumental at Ferrari were Todt, Byrne, and Schumacher. Those three mattered far more to the success Ferrari achieved than Brawn ever did.
give me evidence. winning a GP vs winning the championship is not the same.
Hamilton won championship with Ron Dennis. Won Races with Ron Dennis.
Did not win the championship with Whitmarsh. Did win races with whitmarsh.
Did not win the championship with Brawn. Did win races with Brawn.
so?

Brawn has been with Ferrari winning championships. Brawn has been with Bennetton winning championships. Brawn has been with his own team winning championships. Has a Royal honorary doctorate from the University of Northampton.
How about Brawn receiving his Order of the British Empire from the Queen at Buckingham Palace?

http://eblog.mercedes-benz-passion.com/ ... -Kopie.jpg

Think I've responded enough to this detour of the topic, i'll leave it at here even though i've biten the bait while i didn't want to.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
61
Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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My reason for mentioning those things about Brawn is because it's to show that on the technical development side of things, Brawn has operated in a very grey area of the rulebook. There's nothing he did that even remotely compares to the innovation Chapman was known for.

Regarding Chapman and Delorean, I was strictly focusing on F1 happenings, not events outside of F1.

What about Jochen Rindt and Colin? Are you referring to Monza 1970 where Jochen didn't have his straps fully secured for comfort purposes? Or that he told the mechanics to take off the wings on the Lotus 72 even though the 72 had not yet been tested without the wings? If that was an effort to put the blame on Colin, try and remember the other part of the story that doesn't fit in with the Chapman murdered drivers narrative that people seem to be so fond of tossing up.

You're the one who made the great comment. I am asking you to clarify it with substance instead of trying to run up some Daimler sponsored PR puff piece.
again, you change my words and imply things i did not imply.

I included several 'greats' in formula 1. One great does not need to equal the other to be 'great'. Vettels result don't equal Mansells results. both are greats. Flavio is a great [go ahead see his achievements in F1], while f.e. Peter Windsor or Mike Gascoyne isnt.

nothing more, nothing less.

stop rediculing and back at the topic at hand.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes

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Pup wrote:Personally, I'm more interested in the inclusion of Flavio on that list. :?

Flavio, Champman, Newey...one of these things is not like the other.
Indeed.
Flavio Briatore (born 12 April 1950) is an Italian businessman. He started his career as a restaurant manager and insurance salesman in Italy. Briatore was convicted in Italy on several fraud charges in the 1980s, though the convictions were successively extinguished by an amnesty. Briatore set up a number of successful Benetton franchises as a fugitive in the Virgin Islands and the United States.
Right up there with Byrne, Chapman et al.
JET set