How would Mercedes fare without Brawn?

[Pup]

let´s face reality we all would struggle to name anything but his involvement in successful racing campaign

As you would for any team principal in the modern era. You guys are setting a bar that no one can pass.

[Jersey Tom]

come on JT -i just don´t believe you think Brawn is the inventor of best practises work guidelines .

That's exactly what I think actually. I think Brawn knows what structure and methodology works successfully, and has installed that where he's went. That's what good technical managers do, and I think having that in place is what's crucial.

[GitanesBlondes]

let´s face reality we all would struggle to name anything but his involvement in successful racing campaign

As you would for any team principal in the modern era. You guys are setting a bar that no one can pass.

I don't really agree with this statement Pup.

It's a cop-out to excuse to justify underachieving teams, that are employing 400 or more workers.

Team Principals --like all those overseeing an organization-- are responsible for setting the terms by which the organization adheres to when it comes to meeting goals. How they drive the organization forward is a philosophy that varies from manager to manager.

It has nothing to do with setting "a bar that no one can pass." What the real problem with a majority of the teams on the grid is that regardless of how much money they have to play around with, their organizational structure frankly, sucks. Red Bull is winning everything in sight because they are the only team that has any sort of organization that utilizes the strengths of everyone in the team. The team is unified from bottom to top, which is why Mark Webber's dissension has not amounted to anything. They also have someone on the technical side who is the final word on everything in Adrian Newey.

The Mercedes approach of hiring every TD in sight, still hasn't proven to be successful by any measure.

I'm sure that line will be a cue for someone to come and say, "The team has been performing pretty consistently for awhile now." To that I would say, when you have what amounted to an illegal tire test, and the team sees a jump in performance, it means very little. There's still no indicator that they can sustain all of this over to a completely new formula in 2014.

Maybe they will somehow figure something out next season. I am not optimistic they can with, or without Brawn. In a frozen formula, they were unable to move, or give off the appearance they were able to move forward till they had a rigged tire test to help them out. What are they going to do now that they have to actually develop a brand new car?

Having a strong team principal would do far more for MGP as a whole than anything else at this point. It doesn't even need to be a strong technical mind in the position. It has to be a strong manager who will delegate as necessary, and will not allow for this design-by-committee rubbish MGP thinks is the winning ticket to F1 glory. Ross with his vacant stare and lack of personality, is not a real leader, or inspiration to men. The results speak for themselves gentlemen. I'm afraid no amount of wishful thinking will ever prove that Brawn has been anything but an incompetent since he was running Honda F1, and no FIA advantage was given to him.

[SectorOne]

The Mercedes approach of hiring every TD in sight, still hasn't proven to be successful by any measure.

4 years in the game and in the process of taking second place in the WCC standings.
Not even Red Bull can boast about such a fast route to the top.
It took Red Bull over 4 years to win a race. Mercedes won a race after 3 years.

"Not succesful by any measure" Hmm i think we might just be watching different Formula 1´s.

It should also be said that Red Bull´s first wins came during a regulation revamp. Mercedes has not enjoyed that sort of treat but has to catch up in the same old regulations that we now see Red Bull dominating.
RBR had a similar problem against Mclaren and Ferrari during the previous V8 regulations.

[GitanesBlondes]

Second place in the WCC is coming courtesy of a gift-wrapped present from Ecclestone's old Brabham spannerman Whiting.

Sad people don't see things for what they are; an illegal tire test pretty much assured them of going from midfield up towards the top.

Hardly anything to be impressed by...unless of course one puts a higher emphasis on cheating?

[SectorOne]

Second place in the WCC is coming courtesy of a gift-wrapped present from Ecclestone's old Brabham spannerman Whiting.

Sad people don't see things for what they are; an illegal tire test pretty much assured them of going from midfield up towards the top.

Hardly anything to be impressed by...unless of course one puts a higher emphasis on cheating?

Yea and let´s forget about actual things like Red Bull too benefiting from the newer tires.
That´s what this really comes down to, new tires, some benefited, some did not.

People exaggerating the test to unseen levels as well.
Testing future compounds and not current ones.
Also let´s disregard the development they have done in heat management with wheel rim design.
The fact that they run sensors on all four tires as well.

The only race you can really point to and say yes that was good was Silverstone.
Monaco - would have been destroyed by Red Bull if it weren´t for barriers making it impossible to overtake.
Canada, worse then Red Bull and Ferrari.
Germany? Let´s not even go there.

[GitanesBlondes]

Second place in the WCC is coming courtesy of a gift-wrapped present from Ecclestone's old Brabham spannerman Whiting.

Sad people don't see things for what they are; an illegal tire test pretty much assured them of going from midfield up towards the top.

Hardly anything to be impressed by...unless of course one puts a higher emphasis on cheating?

Yea and let´s forget about actual things like Red Bull too benefiting from the newer tires.

That´s what this really comes down to, new tires, some benefited, some did not.

Well now, there's some differences such as tire data being taken strictly from a W04 to make up for the lack of technical progress on the part of the...oh I don't know, 12 Disciples?

But in any event, keeping with the topic, Mercedes can really do no worse than they did under Brawn.

[pob]

One of the things that does set Brawn apart from other TP's is he is good at race strategy. I have often said that Brawn + Banana > 100 people @ McLaren Technology Centre.

[SectorOne]

Well now, there's some differences such as tire data being taken strictly from a W03 to make up for the lack of technical progress on the part of the...oh I don't know, 12 Disciples?

That would be a W02 if anything.

But in any event, keeping with the topic, Mercedes can really do no worse than they did under Brawn.

Actually they can, not sure if you have noticed but behind Mercedes there´s a whole heap of teams doing much worse for much longer periods in F1. (some have won multiple championships in F1)

But i guess as you said, some people just don´t want to see things for what they really are....an immensely impressive 4 years from Mercedes topping it all of with the most improved car of the lot this year. (pre-tire test even)

To sum up yours and Marcush posts (particularly Marcush years-long run of posts)



And i have yet to see a single post about the incompetence of the years long aero problems of Ferrari.
But i guess you have to pick your battles eh?

[marcush.]

not sure how a new set of regs should be an advantage to make up ground.simply speaking:If you cannot find your ways in known territory why would you venture into the unknown and hope to be ahead? drawing a lucky stike,perhaps? I annot see the sense of this way of thinking.
If I´m back I would rather work to a known set of rules and firmly set targets -this should give clear aims and targets and perfectly drawn out routes to follow....
We should not forget RedBull took over an outright disaster of a team ....when Daimler bought into the team that just had won both championships already using the Mercedes engine...so in essence the team had a change in bankrolling the whole lot only it by no means was a new outfit or in need of restructure or anything...according to Brawn -who had been hired by Honda to do exactly that restructure and lead the team to the front....so it took Brawn a quick 7 years to get to the current state -with the little help of 2009 when a nice interpretation of regulations helped them to sell the team to Daimler...Or am i wrong and it was a steady progress we see here?

but of course I might be all wrong and Daimler would have been much worse off hiring a top manager to lead the newly acquired team....
I´d say if they had hired a David Richards for example ,very very soon things would have changeda lot and the truth surfaced-Daimler had bought more or less a second or third string team with a windtunnel that needed to be brought to life and in need of a mjor injection of money and blood to even think of taking a challenge to RedBull.
I´d say they lost at least one year by sticking to Brawn -as 2012 simply was a waste.(apart from that win...)

[SectorOne]

not sure how a new set of regs should be an advantage to make up ground.simply speaking:If you cannot find your ways in known territory why would you venture into the unknown and hope to be ahead? drawing a lucky stike,perhaps? I annot see the sense of this way of thinking.

Because of the fact that now nobody has any advantage. Everyone starts with a clean sheet of paper.
Jumping into steady regulations means people have an advantage. That advantage is completely gone with new regulations.

It´s no wonder Red Bull never caught up in old regs and why nobody catches them in the new regs.
It´s because they are maintaining their advantage with steady regulations.
Next year everyone starts on zero.

Next year, if Mercedes wins the championship, they have effectively copied Red Bull´s recipe but have done so in a much more impressive and shorter time span.



Even if they come second next year, they would still have a more impressive pre-championship run then Red Bull.

[marcush.]

let´s face reality we all would struggle to name anything but his involvement in successful racing campaign

As you would for any team principal in the modern era. You guys are setting a bar that no one can pass.

It´s not about us ,or me setting up a bar nobody could pass ,it´s about singling out a person to have achieved miracles due to his extraordinary input into the team..which I think is a complete misunderstanding of the job a team principal has to perform .

On a final thought ,maybe it is Brawns technical understanding helping him to understand the needs of the R+Dside as well as the engineering side at the track and allows him to value and stand up for this side of needs in the teams development....i can imagine the controllers are always felt as a unpleasant pain in the neck (or elsewhere) and it needs a knowledgeable person to not get robbed of some recources and opportunities.

I don´t know how domenicali,Horner or whitmarsh do that but they just do not look like they have any idea of what is going on technically...at least Ross does remember how he struggled at williams to build a workable data recorder to capture what the first ground effect cars did on the track...

and for the new regs are good for catching up -by the same logic new regs are good for losing the plot completely .....so who is right there? BMW seemed to be on the verge of being championship contenders -did not understand the new regs and got it all wrong .Ferrari more or less the same and Mclaren as well...that´s three teams NOT using the opportunity .
Let´s not forget RedBull did not really have a winner at the start as well as they had missed the ddd thingy and had commited to pull rod rear suspension which did not help that aero at all.
Nevertheless come years end everything was back to normal -with RedBull to the front now -but that was less due to the change of regs but the massive monetary power injection into the team over long time.Didi cannot only afford Newey and his outrageous salary he can afford to pay it all.
so if you want to beat them you not only need to match Newey in terms of being clever you also need to have equaly deep pockets and no board to ask if it really needs to spent that much money...

[xpensive]

In the context of a top heavy organization, Lauda, Wolff and Lowe, I'd be very surprised to see Brawn leaving much of a vacuum.

[GitanesBlondes]

I think that might be the benefit of having the organizational structure they have as it's less likely to have a vacuum opening up with the loss of the team principal. We've already seen how the loss of a top TP can effectively end a F1 team...or pave the way for the end.

[turbof1]

Shouldn't this topic be merged with the "Ross Brawn leaves Mercedes" one? Basicilly they both cover the same.