Red Bull RB9 Renault

[SectorOne]

How many rapid direction changes does it do?
And can you actually affect that in any way or is it just creating one and making sure it goes where it should?

[Chuckjr]

Since there are so many references to the ferrari vortices being so much "worse" compared to the RB, can someone post a side by side comparison please? That may help in understanding the beauty of what is being seen here.

And, is Newey really this good? Is he the only man on this planet that is capable of this? By the reactions I am seeing here from a lot of guys that seem to know a lot, I gather he just may be.

[Huntresa]

Since there are so many references to the ferrari vortices being so much "worse" compared to the RB, can someone post a side by side comparison please? That may help in understanding the beauty of what is being seen here.

And, is Newey really this good? Is he the only man on this planet that is capable of this? By the reactions I am seeing here from a lot of guys that seem to know a lot, I gather he just may be.

Only Ferrari pic we got is from the side from last week and in that you could see it didnt act like the RB as in going where it should, it more lost its form and became dispersed air just looked like smoke at the back end of.

[Matt Somers]

Since there are so many references to the ferrari vortices being so much "worse" compared to the RB, can someone post a side by side comparison please? That may help in understanding the beauty of what is being seen here.

And, is Newey really this good? Is he the only man on this planet that is capable of this? By the reactions I am seeing here from a lot of guys that seem to know a lot, I gather he just may be.

You have to remember that the FOM camera's are in different positions and so capturing what we saw on the RB9 yesterday on other car's won't happen...

[timbo]

How many rapid direction changes does it do?
And can you actually affect that in any way or is it just creating one and making sure it goes where it should?

It is affected by the airstream around it.

I wonder, the vortex is obviously most intense as speed goes up. Maybe it is tuned to affect the airflow at the top speed somehow reducing drag?

[piast9]

I wonder, the vortex is obviously most intense as speed goes up. Maybe it is tuned to affect the airflow at the top speed somehow reducing drag?

May be but at lower speeds the pressure differences are too small to cause vapor to condense. Vertex may still be there but we just don't see it.

[ringo]

just stays so perfectly in place

good find, +1 if i could

Why wouldn't it?
If the car parts are rigid, there's no reason for the vortex to waver.

[atanatizante]

Those vanes make the exhaust acting like a vortex?
People said that this kinda vanes will be there in order to seal the diffuser in 2014, but their location and shape will not be the same once the exhaust blowing is gone and more of that they could work in conjunction with the Y250 so called vortex ...

[tok-tokkie]

Many thanks for the video. When you posted the still picture it seemed to me the vortex was running inside the vertical vane at the radiator inlet. It looked like it was following the route shown in the AMus diagram - which is above the floor along the bottom edge of the sidepod. But the video seems to show it going outside the vertical vane & on to perfectly seal the underfloor. It runs along beside the floor and on the track to perfectly seal the underfloor. I had no appreciation that a vortex could be that stable. The way that thing is generated & then guided into position is magical - except it is not magic but brilliant engineering. They deserve their World Title.

'----------------------------
I posted a long query about how RB sealed the underfloor. Here is the answer. Post was on page 115 4 November. I repost it here.

How does Red Bull seal its floor along the sides?

This is a long post. I don’t understand how Red Bull manages to run so much rake and why the other teams do not. I show my observations and thoughts but do so so that any mistakes, misunderstandings or omissions can be corrected by those who do know how they do it.


This picture shows the huge rake that they run – how do they prevent air from getting in under the floor from the sides? I would think the only way would be a strong vortex rotating down alongside the car and outwards away from the car at the track. Renault (Lotus?) had the exhaust coming out at the front of the floor in an attempt to create a strong sealing vortex but it was not a success (because of variations as the throttle was used?)


Looking from the back of 4 cars running straight ahead. The Red Bull has its diffuser set much higher than the others.
If it is a vortex that is sealing the floor I don’t understand how it is created.


Starting from the front. The wing has 2 vanes to assist in sending air out around the outside of the front tire. When it comes in again behind the tire it should help make the air flow clockwise (looking from the front at the right wheel as in this picture). The spinning tire would defelct the airstream upwards which would assist the required rotation. This wing is sending a lot of air around the outside of the tire.


On the underside there is incredible detailing. Long strakes towards the centreline sending the air directly down the inside of the tire. The angle of attack of the wing creates a whole sucession of little diffusers under the wing really creating downforce here


I forget the name of the two vanes in front of the tea tray – snow plough I think. It would seem to me that these are critical for initiating the vortex that seals the sides of the floor – if I am correct in my supposition.


View of the underside with one of the vanes still in place. The interaction of the airflow from the vane when it meets up with the air going around the outside of the tire could, I suppose, result in a vortex with the desired rotation. We also see the vane alongside the tea tray, the barge board and the vertical vane at the start of the sidepod The suspension arms and the front brake ducts are also aerodynamically shaped. It is all a complex aerodynamic assembly.


The front corner of the floor where the vortex should be. The bottom of the vertical sidepod turning vane and the trailing edge of the barge board seem to be directing the airflow towards the little flap along the edge of the front of the floor. That all fits in nicely with the vortex I am looking for. Higher up the turning vane is sending the inside air to nicely keep the air coming around the outside of the tire away from the sidepod to join up with the air coming through on the inside. We can see the back of the brake duct which is deflecting the air downwards just as required for the vortex.


Same area but with the snow plough visible and more of the barge board showing the slot in it –( to create a vortex?). The suspension wishbones seem to be fairly aerodynamically neutral.


The same area where the beautiful detailing and the massive fillet between the sidepod and the floor – a really critical part for good airflow conditions.


The brake ducting. Does not show the trailing edge details which we glimpsed in a picture higher up. Williams tried taking the air through the front axle from inside to outside but gave up on that scheme. I think the air is fed from inside to outside by all the cars (not through the axle). I know there are rules preventing using impellers to draw the air through the wheel (by shaping the ‘spokes’).

[Owen.C93]

Personally I'm not convinced the RBR vortex was significantly better than the Ferrari. The Ferrari looked less stable but that was further along it's travel, if you managed to keep the water vapor condensed on the RB then I think it would look similarly "loose".

In any case I think some people are getting a little carried away with their theories of how every difference in the design of the RB9 compared to others is solely for controlling that vortex. The outer and and inner endplate vortices are much more important for tyre wake management. Mercedes even closed the inner flaps of their FW which is what makes the vortex we're discussing and it didn't make them any slower for it.

[CBeck113]

just stays so perfectly in place

good find, +1 if i could

Why wouldn't it?
If the car parts are rigid, there's no reason for the vortex to waver.

The vortex is not attached to the car, but being pushed around by it. It will always follow the path of least resistance. The key to making it last so long is to condition the air around it as well, not just the vortex. A pressure drop anywhere along its path and it will break apart, like on the F138. I believe that the key to the RB9 is how it handles the turbulence from the wheels. You simply can't get a vortex, or any other flow for that matter, through a turbulent flow area without losses, but it seems that there is no influence (pretty much laminary flow) around the wheel area and past the barge boards =D> . Without these problems you can dictate exactly where you want the air to go, and it will get there. The only way I could see them doing this is a combination between their blown hub and a different vortex from the front wing which is aimed at the area along & behind the wheel, forcing the turbulent air outward, away from the car. This is something that they will carry over into next year, and if the engine can handle the Newey packaging then they will dominate again (oh I hope not).

[stefan_]

Brazil 2013 - Saturday (23.11.2013)

[shelly]

How many rapid direction changes does it do?
And can you actually affect that in any way or is it just creating one and making sure it goes where it should?

the corkscrew shape is probably due to the interaction with the vortex from the truning vanes under the nose, that make the trajectory of the flap vortex spiral.

[SectorOne]

Thanks, so in theory you have the ability to control the amount of sharp turns based on things affecting the vortex.

[Huntresa]

How many rapid direction changes does it do?
And can you actually affect that in any way or is it just creating one and making sure it goes where it should?

the corkscrew shape is probably due to the interaction with the vortex from the truning vanes under the nose, that make the trajectory of the flap vortex spiral.

But the corkscrew effect isnt that just how a vortice looks ? I mean it is a vortex, which is spinning or swirling perhaps. Then if that shapes moves to the side which it does here is most likely based on what you say and i also said above, but the shape is a normal shape no without interaction ?