Red Bull RB3 / Toro Rosso

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ss_collins
ss_collins
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Joined: 31 Oct 2006, 15:59

Red Bull RB3 / Toro Rosso

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Well its a fact now - the STR is the Red Bull RB3 - from the front they look identical. Wonder what will happen next?

ss_collins
ss_collins
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Joined: 31 Oct 2006, 15:59

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On the F1 championship entry form it states -

We, the Applicant, hereby confirm that we are a "constructor" within the meaning of schedule 3 of the 1998 Concorde Agreement.

This whole debate will centre on the exact wording of that document

1.7 Automobile Make:
In the case of Formula racing cars, an automobile make is a
complete car. When the car manufacturer fits an engine which it
does not manufacture, the car shall be considered a hybrid and the
name of the engine manufacturer shall be associated with that of the
car manufacturer. The name of the car manufacturer must always
precede that of the engine manufacturer. Should a hybrid car win a
Championship Title, Cup or Trophy, this will be awarded to the
manufacturer of the car.

Now this says manufacturer - by which I'd say its safe to presume 'maker' rather than designer So you'll have a Red Bull - Renault and a STR-Ferrari

But are either Red Bull or STR constructors - if as is claimed Red Bull's spin off company own the design then it might be said that they are the constructor not RBR or STR meaning both are out. They have made it very clear that RBR do not own the design. Now I think the Concorde agreement (which I've not seen) would prevent two teams from buying the same design from say Lola as customers or franchise builders so I reckon the RB3 is outside the rules. We may see last years cars with some hasty mods on at some point if Spyker, Toyota and Williams kick off.

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johny
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Joined: 07 Apr 2005, 09:06
Location: Spain

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in F1 if something is found clearly exposed in the rule book as ilegal then you can always say that's a loophole, I don't see any loophole i just see teams going over the rules with no FIA police, and it's obvious that str and rbr will race with that cars completly trouble free. Super Aguri at least is working in an old desing and it'll have some different updates not just a copy/paste

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Principessa
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Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 14:36
Location: Zottegem Belgium

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:arrow: http://www.f1technical.net/gallery/v/To ... R2/Launch/

I wonder what will happen too. I'm sure that there will be teams protesting, but I don't think that they'll be able to do anything about it.

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johny
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Joined: 07 Apr 2005, 09:06
Location: Spain

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berger looks quite confident, he knows that any decision in this issue will be quite hard that FIA won't keep on with it

monkeyboy1976
monkeyboy1976
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Joined: 12 Jan 2006, 17:00
Location: Midlands, UK

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STR would not risk being chucked out of the championship with such a blantant carbon copy of the RB3 without knowing for sure that they will get away with it.
It's either that or Dietrich Mateschitz has far more money than sense.

6 cars all penned by Newey on the grid. Not bad for him.

By the way, was the car that stopped on the circuit and caused the red flag, denying STR there moment of glory, a Williams by any chance?

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ss_collins
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Joined: 31 Oct 2006, 15:59

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I think they will race but Red Bull, Toro Rosso and Super Aguri are in danger of not scoring constructors points.

There is a definition of what defines a constructor and thats critical - that wording is what will define it - shame the likes of us don't get to know what is and isn't legal in F1. F1 technology is what I watch for a living yet I don't know what the rulebook says. Its really stupid, its like watching a football match but not knowing which players are allowed to touch the ball. No wonder the fans are switching off

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joseff
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Joined: 24 Sep 2002, 11:53

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If the Neweymobile is as fast as advertised, expect Toyota to make even more noise. Now the FIA can't ignore THAT.

Wow, suddenly I have more respect for Aguri Suzuki than Gerhard Berger.

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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Last year two teams were allowed certain discrepencieson the rules. STR adopted a chassis definitely not of their construction, and STR managed to use a V-10, saying they couldn't afford a new V-8. Of course, STR put on a lavish show of budget excess with one of the most opulent chalets and media centers.
So now SA shows up with what is obviously last year's Honda. Guess who manufactured that chassis?
Over in Red Bull land, they have a Newey chassis, but going to be used with either a Ferrari or Renault engine. Basically same chassis, but used in two teams, two different powerplants. My simple mind tells me that all these Newey chassis were manufactured in one location, instead of in a separate Red Bull factory, and a STR factory. So if that makes Red Bull the chassis manifacturer, then to me, STR is just a customer who purchased chassis from RB.
I'm just a simple fan, and in my simple universe, each team is supposed to design and construct their own chassis. But instead we shall see the lawyers being trotted out and using legalise to rationalize their positions. Another confusing issue that clouds the integrity of F1 will be hammered out in the courts, and at the conclusion, someone is not going to be happy.

When Bill Clinton gave his deposition in the Paula Jones case, he said he had never had "sexual relations" with Monica Lewinsky. But Lewinsky has reportedly testified to a number of acts that most people think of as sex. Can both statements somehow be true? Is it possible that the two of them had intimate contact, yet Clinton still did not perjure himself? In the intricate world of the law, a world of hairsplitting distinctions where the President is famously at home, it just may be so. Here's why.

At Clinton's deposition, Jones' legal team asked Judge Susan Webber Wright to approve a very precise, three-part definition of sexual relations. Clinton's attorney Robert Bennett objected to the whole definition, but to the last two parts especially, as being too broad. Wright agreed to disallow parts 2 and 3, leaving only the first, narrowest definition of sex in place.

With that, Clinton may have been given the room to offer a technically "true" denial to the question of whether he had sex with Lewinsky--even if she happened to perform fellatio on him. The truncated definition characterizes sex in terms of a checklist of body parts, including the genitals, breast and thigh. Oral sex would not necessarily require the President to touch anything on Lewinsky that appears on that list. Strange as it may sound, under one reading of the definition, Lewinsky could have been having sex with him (because she was "touching" the President's genitals) while at the same moment, he was not having sex with her. (At the deposition, Clinton wasn't asked if she had sexual relations with him, just if he had them with her.) Isn't the law a wonderfully intricate device?


http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/08/ ... inton.html

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ketanpaul
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Joined: 08 Mar 2005, 18:50
Location: New Delhi, India

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Well I really dont mind Toro Rosso using RB3 chassis, it will only mean that now more teams are capable of performing at the top, which is extremely exciting as more and more now comes to the drivers and that makes it more unpredictable. Go Toro!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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joseff
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Joined: 24 Sep 2002, 11:53

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"I really don't mind people using drugs at the Tour de France, it will only mean that more riders would be capable of running at the front, being less dependant on equipment."

Sorry, can't sympathize with cheaters.

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
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Joined: 12 Mar 2006, 00:27
Location: ...

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I don't think either will be running at the front... to be honest I am pretty sure STR have found a great big loop hole to jump through and it's to late for the FIA to close it... I doubt the FIA are going to push this to hard because they wan't to encourage customer chassis after the concorde agreement is up...

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pRo
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 09:08

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It's quite interesting to see how people's definition of right and wrong vary according to the team who's making it.

When someone's favourite team finds a loophole in the rules and uses it, they cheer and blame everyone else for not finding it and cover the team with lines like "if it was illegal, FIA would ban it". And if&when FIA does ban it, the lines changes to "but it was legal at that time". There's always an excuse ready to defend their favourite team.

And then when another team finds another loophole, they are cheaters and whatevers?

Such is human nature. 8)
Formula 1, 57, died Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007
Born May 13, 1950, in Silverstone, United Kingdom
Will be held in the hearts of millions forever
Rest In Peace, we will not forget you

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Keir
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Joined: 09 Feb 2007, 21:16

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pRo - It's the same perception people have on the roads;

'Everyone driving slower than you is a moron, anyone driving faster is reckless'

allan
allan
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Joined: 14 Jan 2006, 22:14
Location: Waterloo, Canada

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correct me if im wrong, but the sauber c23 was actually a ferrari f2003ga, righy?
omg, im shooting myself in the foot :lol: