Red Bull RB10 Pre-launch Speculation

[trinidefender]

No the tunnel is still there for good reason, if you use the top surface of the sidepod to run vortices along from the VGs at the front, you can get a high pressure at the diffusers trailing edge. This, like EBD leaves the issue of the cross flow from the sidepod undercut. Thus the tunnel exists to duct the crossflow to the starter motor hole

Renault had a design that tried this at the start of '09. It didn't work, and nobody else followed it.

Yeah but we have had tunnels for 2 years now working fine, so why wouldnt a tunnel work ?

My personal reason of why I don't think you'll see that is that by keeping the large flat sidepods that have a lot of surface area all the way to the back you create a very large wing (read low pressure) area over the sidepods. This will create tons of lift. Before they needed all this airflow to get the exhaust stream down to the ground, now it is not needed in that way. You may see heavy undercuts as they can move a much larger massflow of air to the rear, also the heavy undercut can free up floor space.

[scarbs]

That’s a valid argument. The sidepod’s will create lift and adding VGs will create even more lift locally over the sidepod. Of course that’s already the case today and has been for years. However the resulting effect at the diffusers trailing edge should create more downforce, which offsets the lift created above the sidepod. This is why Lotus has had sidepod shoulder VGs even when they didn’t have a coanda exhaust set up, the effect was aimed at the diffusers TE, not the exhaust.
It’s a trade off, globally you have more load from the car.

[i70q7m7ghw]

No the tunnel is still there for good reason, if you use the top surface of the sidepod to run vortices along from the VGs at the front, you can get a high pressure at the diffusers trailing edge. This, like EBD leaves the issue of the cross flow from the sidepod undercut. Thus the tunnel exists to duct the crossflow to the starter motor hole

Renault had a design that tried this at the start of '09. It didn't work, and nobody else followed it.

Yeah but we have had tunnels for 2 years now working fine, so why wouldnt a tunnel work ?

The tunnels were created to help seperate exhaust flow from the airflow coming from the splitter and around the sidepods. Next year, the exhaust flow won't be there, so there's no reason to have the tunnel. The increased surface area will negate any benefit gained from seperating the airflow over top of the diffuser from the airflow around the sides. As I said, Renault tried to do in 2009, trying to replace the flipups from pre-09 which did a similar job. It didn't work and they followed everyone else with smooth sidepod body work.

[trinidefender]

That’s a valid argument. The sidepod’s will create lift and adding VGs will create even more lift locally over the sidepod. Of course that’s already the case today and has been for years. However the resulting effect at the diffusers trailing edge should create more downforce, which offsets the lift created above the sidepod. This is why Lotus has had sidepod shoulder VGs even when they didn’t have a coanda exhaust set up, the effect was aimed at the diffusers TE, not the exhaust.
It’s a trade off, globally you have more load from the car.

I guess it will really depend on how much lift is created vs how much extra downforce you get out of the diffuser vs the extra drag penalty from shaping the sidepods like that and having the vortex generators. Remember creating vortices adds on a lot of drag. If a team can get away with using a smaller vortex or not using one all together the you can cut a lot of drag from the whole system. To add to that by not using any VG's it keeps the airflow laminar. Laminar airflow is easier to model and work with than vortices. Laminar airflow is also more useful further downstream than unstable air. You can always add in a vortex further back if need be to laminar airflow however if you already have a vortex for a purpose and it doesn't fit some aero further down the car then you are stuck with potentially unstable air.

I wouldn't be surprised to see sidepod designs more biased towards moving air around the sidepods rather than over them as they are now. If this comes to pass then trying to seal the edge of the floor with that extra air amass coming around the the sidepods will be even more crucial. Especially with the fact that the front wing is narrower so therefore cannot have the same affect as before when it comes to pushing airflow around the front tyre.

[scarbs]

@Diesel "The tunnels were created to help separate exhaust flow from the airflow coming around the sidepods"

That's exactly my point, with no exhaust, you can instead use sidepod top VGs to generate the localised high pressure regions over the diffuser. The tunnel then stops the crossflow upsetting what is already a limited amount of airflow getting to the the diffuser.

Its in no way similar the 09 Renault.

Granted its not the only approach to the solution, but its one that works with the enforced SIPS and larger volume heat exchangers.

[SectorOne]

Is it possible to put VG´s on the floor instead? But further up then the exhaust-plume diverters?
I guess like 2011 exhaust but instead have a vortex generator there. And with a non-tunnel sidepod.

[scarbs]

Its possible and legal, you've just under 50mm height to create a fin. But the flow over the floor isnt as powerful as the cleaner flow hitting the sidepod tops

[SectorOne]

Thanks for the info, interesting.

[FrukostScones]

Red Bull desinged the new FIA side crash elements which are mandatory for all cars. Could they have a advantage with it? surely it is not a disadvantage.

[Owen.C93]

Originally a Marussia design though. #MarussiaWCC2014

[FrukostScones]

http://translate.google.de/translate?sl ... 44005.html

if already posted?, didn't see it!

Newey on 2013 /2014 and RB10:

"The biggest problem is the front wing."

" I will try to keep the "rake" even without exhaust blowing"

something like this he says, so other common means than the exhaust to seal the diffuser or some sneaky sneaky stuff..?

[Huntresa]

No the tunnel is still there for good reason, if you use the top surface of the sidepod to run vortices along from the VGs at the front, you can get a high pressure at the diffusers trailing edge. This, like EBD leaves the issue of the cross flow from the sidepod undercut. Thus the tunnel exists to duct the crossflow to the starter motor hole

Renault had a design that tried this at the start of '09. It didn't work, and nobody else followed it.

Yeah but we have had tunnels for 2 years now working fine, so why wouldnt a tunnel work ?

The tunnels were created to help seperate exhaust flow from the airflow coming from the splitter and around the sidepods. Next year, the exhaust flow won't be there, so there's no reason to have the tunnel. The increased surface area will negate any benefit gained from seperating the airflow over top of the diffuser from the airflow around the sides. As I said, Renault tried to do in 2009, trying to replace the flipups from pre-09 which did a similar job. It didn't work and they followed everyone else with smooth sidepod body work.

Tunnel + VGs, just like Lotus ran VGs as the first team in F1 and that was without coanda and it was for th diffuser, the gains are just bigger then the lift you inherit from using VGs and then tunnel.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Tunnel + VGs, just like Lotus ran VGs as the first team in F1 and that was without coanda and it was for th diffuser, the gains are just bigger then the lift you inherit from using VGs and then tunnel.

I believe Scarbs has already stated this. I still don't feel it's going to be beneficial, the lift & drag penalty would be significant.

[tuj]

Will the RB10 use the ERS as a form of traction control like the RB9 is rumored to have done with KERS?

[Huntresa]

Tunnel + VGs, just like Lotus ran VGs as the first team in F1 and that was without coanda and it was for th diffuser, the gains are just bigger then the lift you inherit from using VGs and then tunnel.

I believe Scarbs has already stated this. I still don't feel it's going to be beneficial, the lift & drag penalty would be significant.

But thats why i mention Lotus, why would they run VGs without Coanda if the penalty was significant and the gains were not ?

And together with a tunnel it would just be better.