Red Bull RB10 Pre-launch Speculation

[i70q7m7ghw]

Tunnel + VGs, just like Lotus ran VGs as the first team in F1 and that was without coanda and it was for th diffuser, the gains are just bigger then the lift you inherit from using VGs and then tunnel.

I believe Scarbs has already stated this. I still don't feel it's going to be beneficial, the lift & drag penalty would be significant.

But thats why i mention Lotus, why would they run VGs without Coanda if the penalty was significant and the gains were not ?

And together with a tunnel it would just be better.

I'm saying that I don't see VGs & a Tunnel without Coanda as working. I'm not saying VGs don't work. Did Lotus ever run VGs + a ramp & runnel without a Coanda exhaust? I don't believe they did, so I don't really see how your argument is valid.

[Owen.C93]

MP4-25 was probably the closest we've seen.

[gandharva]

http://translate.google.de/translate?sl ... 44005.html

if already posted?, didn't see it!

Newey on 2013 /2014 and RB10:

"The biggest problem is the front wing."

" I will try to keep the "rake" even without exhaust blowing"

something like this he says, so other common means than the exhaust to seal the diffuser or some sneaky sneaky stuff..?

Quick summary of Neweys words:

- Some hint that we won't see the ramp in 2014 as it was only a compromise with small benefits and only done because of exhaust exiting on the side was allowed
- Webber has more "aerodynamic feeling" for the car than Seb but general design route followed CFD and not drivers feelings
- Engine mappings had huge influence in 2013
- Biggest 2014 problem is the frontwing. -> Design decision between rounting air on the inner or outer side of front wheels
- V6 engine packaging is 2x to 3x more complex than with V8s
- "I used rake as no exhaust blowing was available and I will try to do it again"

[Coefficient]

No the tunnel is still there for good reason, if you use the top surface of the sidepod to run vortices along from the VGs at the front, you can get a high pressure at the diffusers trailing edge. This, like EBD leaves the issue of the cross flow from the sidepod undercut. Thus the tunnel exists to duct the crossflow to the starter motor hole

Renault had a design that tried this at the start of '09. It didn't work, and nobody else followed it.

Yeah but we have had tunnels for 2 years now working fine, so why wouldnt a tunnel work ?

The tunnels were created to help seperate exhaust flow from the airflow coming from the splitter and around the sidepods. Next year, the exhaust flow won't be there, so there's no reason to have the tunnel. The increased surface area will negate any benefit gained from seperating the airflow over top of the diffuser from the airflow around the sides. As I said, Renault tried to do in 2009, trying to replace the flipups from pre-09 which did a similar job. It didn't work and they followed everyone else with smooth sidepod body work.

I think there is more to the tunnel than this. I think it was also used to suck the Y250 vortex back in board to mix with the exhaust gases and energise the sealing effect betweent the rear tyres and diffuser.

[Coefficient]

MP4-25 was probably the closest we've seen.

To what?

[i70q7m7ghw]

The tunnels were created to help seperate exhaust flow from the airflow coming from the splitter and around the sidepods. Next year, the exhaust flow won't be there, so there's no reason to have the tunnel. The increased surface area will negate any benefit gained from seperating the airflow over top of the diffuser from the airflow around the sides. As I said, Renault tried to do in 2009, trying to replace the flipups from pre-09 which did a similar job. It didn't work and they followed everyone else with smooth sidepod body work.

I think there is more to the tunnel than this. I think it was also used to suck the Y250 vortex back in board to mix with the exhaust gases and energise the sealing effect betweent the rear tyres and diffuser.

Quite possibly, but the tunnel is still only useful with the exhausts exiting up stream. We might see some interesting sidepod shapes, heavy undercuts but bulbous profiles is likely, but no tunnels.

[Pup]

Some hints from Newey, via TJ13...

Q: The aerodynamic concept of the Red Bull has dominated F1 since 2009. How much of a danger is there that this might change in 2014?

The biggest problem next year is the narrower front wing. 150 millimetres might not sound like much, but it makes a huge difference as the end plates will now be right before the front tyres.It’s a monumental task to make up for that disadvantage. You have to decide whether to direct the air flow past the front wheels on the outside or the inside. The second challenge is to package in the engine and all its secondary devices. That powertrain is a complex beast. The installation is a bout two or three times as difficult as with the current V8.

Q: Will it still be possible to run with as much rake as you did in the past?

I cannot say yet. We cannot use the exhaust to seal the diffuser anymore. That’s because we only have one tailpipe under the rear wing and the turbo charger uses up much of the exhaust gasses energy. We probably integrated the exhaust into our aerodynamical concept the best, which is why we have the most to lose. On the other hand, I ran my cars with a rake before the exhaust blown diffuser, so I’ll try it again.

[Coefficient]

The tunnels were created to help seperate exhaust flow from the airflow coming from the splitter and around the sidepods. Next year, the exhaust flow won't be there, so there's no reason to have the tunnel. The increased surface area will negate any benefit gained from seperating the airflow over top of the diffuser from the airflow around the sides. As I said, Renault tried to do in 2009, trying to replace the flipups from pre-09 which did a similar job. It didn't work and they followed everyone else with smooth sidepod body work.

I think there is more to the tunnel than this. I think it was also used to suck the Y250 vortex back in board to mix with the exhaust gases and energise the sealing effect betweent the rear tyres and diffuser.

Quite possibly, but the tunnel is still only useful with the exhausts exiting up stream. We might see some interesting sidepod shapes, heavy undercuts but bulbous profiles is likely, but no tunnels.

It would still be useful to suck the y250 vortex back in board and direct it between the wheels and diffuser.

[Pierce89]

The y250 vortex has lost most of its energy and helicity by the time it gets that far back. It wouldn't achieve much without some form of augmentation .

[trinidefender]

People are using the word "suck" like there is actually a vacuum there sucking airflow through the tunnel. You have to remember how small the tunnel gets, it simply cannot move that much air. The rest of the airflow will go past the tunnel and do one of two things; hit the wheel or flow around the wheel and interact with the air coming over the top of the sidepods. The space that the bridge and tunnel uses up on the floor is large, very large. Think of the amount of floor space you free up by using a concept similar to the rb-7. A lot of people underestimate the importance of clean airflow. Vortices lose strength the further back they travel and after they start to break up, all that is left is turbulent air. You can always use vortex generators on the floor to turn this clean airflow into vortices for the back end if you so desire.

[krisfx]

People are using the word "suck" like there is actually a vacuum there sucking airflow through the tunnel. You have to remember how small the tunnel gets, it simply cannot move that much air. The rest of the airflow will go past the tunnel and do one of two things; hit the wheel or flow around the wheel and interact with the air coming over the top of the sidepods. The space that the bridge and tunnel uses up on the floor is large, very large. Think of the amount of floor space you free up by using a concept similar to the rb-7. A lot of people underestimate the importance of clean airflow. Vortices lose strength the further back they travel and after they start to break up, all that is left is turbulent air. You can always use vortex generators on the floor to turn this clean airflow into vortices for the back end if you so desire.

If you get a good low pressure zone behind those tunnels, though surely they will suck air through, Obviously not as much as maybe some people are speculating, but there's still a sucking action no?

RE: Vortices, I agree with you. There seems to be a massive love for them right now, even though we know they are useful, they are not the be all and end all I think.

[timbo]

RE: Vortices, I agree with you. There seems to be a massive love for them right now, even though we know they are useful, they are not the be all and end all I think.

This is an outgrowth of what regs and racing format dictates. Remember all those spikes and winglets which were added pre 2009. Same thing IMO.

[trinidefender]

People are using the word "suck" like there is actually a vacuum there sucking airflow through the tunnel. You have to remember how small the tunnel gets, it simply cannot move that much air. The rest of the airflow will go past the tunnel and do one of two things; hit the wheel or flow around the wheel and interact with the air coming over the top of the sidepods. The space that the bridge and tunnel uses up on the floor is large, very large. Think of the amount of floor space you free up by using a concept similar to the rb-7. A lot of people underestimate the importance of clean airflow. Vortices lose strength the further back they travel and after they start to break up, all that is left is turbulent air. You can always use vortex generators on the floor to turn this clean airflow into vortices for the back end if you so desire.

If you get a good low pressure zone behind those tunnels, though surely they will suck air through, Obviously not as much as maybe some people are speculating, but there's still a sucking action no?

RE: Vortices, I agree with you. There seems to be a massive love for them right now, even though we know they are useful, they are not the be all and end all I think.

Well what low pressure areas can you use? Only really the starter hole leading to the diffuser, other than that there aren't really any constant low pressure zones are there.

[Owen.C93]

Don't think of it as sucking, just think of it as less losses at the entrance.

[kartwheels]

http://scarbsf1.com/blog1/2013/12/04/sp ... redcition/

just to throw a spanner in the works, here is some speculation from Germany, not sure how accurate this is? I thought there would be no monkey seats within the 2014 regs?