which driver will gain most from 2014 regs ?

[PlatinumZealot]

Hamilton and particularly Alonso have shown themselves to be quite adaptable. I think they will shine again in 2014.

With all due respect (and at the risk of his fanboys going nuts with the downvotes), Hamilton has arguably suffered the most of any driver from the need to manage races. That need is only going to increase next season. This is also the same Hamilton who has openly mentioned several times this season his struggles to adapt and feel comfortable with the Mercedes package.

With regards Vettel, Webber stated just the other week that his adaptability and race management were amongst his strongest assets.

OK, OK.. we will see. I was watching Hamilton closely this year and I didn't notice any major issues with race management. He managed tyres quite well even better than Rosberg most of the time. After Malaysia he also did well with fuel management. Silverstone, Hungary and Brazil were masterclass in race management if you ask me.
His only problems were getting used to the FRIC system and the brakes, Monaco being the most glaring example, but even still he did an admirable job in adapting thereafter.

Vettel, I will give him props for race management... yah.. he seems to have mastered it, but that is the same we said of Schuamacher when he was frequently leading the pack in those Ferraris... and then! we saw him in the Mercedes!! lol

[PlatinumZealot]

With the reduced aerodynamics and the massiv torque at lower RPM of the new enignes aligning the car for the next straight and getting on throttle early will probably be even more important than it was.

I think it´s the exact opposite. You´ll want to get on the throttle as late as you possibly can to make sure the car is as much in a straight line as possible.
Early throttle application pre-apex is only going to work the rears harder then you need to.
Better to throw the car in, lean on the fronts as much as possible, get the car straighter then apply all the torque and power.

There will be absolutely no gain as well from being on the throttle pre-apex. (oither then shifting weight off the front wheels)

I agree. Fast in, slow out, will be the order of the day.

[lebesset]

as has been oft discussed vettel's big gain has been his ability to put his pedal to the metal early on corner exit , making full use of the downforce on the RBR

if reports are to be believed a lot more sensitivity will be required in 2014 and although I have no doubt that vettel will adapt ...I also doubt that there is anyone more sensitive than button which is why ~I felt he would be the biggest gainer

Being sensitive is one thing, but being precise in your response to those changes is another. In a control system you could have the best sensors, but if your effectors are only as precise as a battering ram then you aint gonna get good system control. Button is known to be very sensitive but while he can feel minute changes in his car he rarely has the nous to instantly react to those in car changes. Don't get me wrong, he is the best to reacting to the environment around the car, but he is notorious for not being able to adapt to changes in car behavior.

~I see that as an oxymoron ...the biggest changes in car behaviour occur in changing conditions during the race , which is the very time that button seems to get his best results

[Gerhard Berger]

With the reduced aerodynamics and the massiv torque at lower RPM of the new enignes aligning the car for the next straight and getting on throttle early will probably be even more important than it was.

I think it´s the exact opposite. You´ll want to get on the throttle as late as you possibly can to make sure the car is as much in a straight line as possible.
Early throttle application pre-apex is only going to work the rears harder then you need to.
Better to throw the car in, lean on the fronts as much as possible, get the car straighter then apply all the torque and power.

There will be absolutely no gain as well from being on the throttle pre-apex. (oither then shifting weight off the front wheels)

Alonso used this driving style to great effect in 2006 and 2012.

[Gerhard Berger]

Prime example of Vettel is where he managed his car perfectly at Malaysia 2013 - kept on Webbers ass but had a load of tyre life and fuel left at the crucial point. Not to rehash the whole event, but he proved to be the guy who had driven the fastest and smartest race that day.

It is also really difficult to get a fastest lap now if you're a top 6 contender as the guys in the midfield who put a set of tyres on with 5 laps to go WILL beat your time due to the fresher rubber, but Vettel has always got that bit of tyre life at the end to go for that fastest lap.

Malaysia is a very bad example for obvious reasons. There's much better examples like Germany this year or Belgium last year.

[FrukostScones]

Nico Rosberg

[mnmracer]

Prime example of Vettel is where he managed his car perfectly at Malaysia 2013 - kept on Webbers ass but had a load of tyre life and fuel left at the crucial point. Not to rehash the whole event, but he proved to be the guy who had driven the fastest and smartest race that day.

It is also really difficult to get a fastest lap now if you're a top 6 contender as the guys in the midfield who put a set of tyres on with 5 laps to go WILL beat your time due to the fresher rubber, but Vettel has always got that bit of tyre life at the end to go for that fastest lap.

Malaysia is a very bad example for obvious reasons. There's much better examples like Germany this year or Belgium last year.

There's nothing bad about the example. Fact is that at the end of the race, Vettel had better tires and more fuel left.

[Gerhard Berger]

Prime example of Vettel is where he managed his car perfectly at Malaysia 2013 - kept on Webbers ass but had a load of tyre life and fuel left at the crucial point. Not to rehash the whole event, but he proved to be the guy who had driven the fastest and smartest race that day.

It is also really difficult to get a fastest lap now if you're a top 6 contender as the guys in the midfield who put a set of tyres on with 5 laps to go WILL beat your time due to the fresher rubber, but Vettel has always got that bit of tyre life at the end to go for that fastest lap.

Malaysia is a very bad example for obvious reasons. There's much better examples like Germany this year or Belgium last year.

There's nothing bad about the example. Fact is that at the end of the race, Vettel had better tires and more fuel left.

Jumped to slick tyres too early, got the undercut when he shouldn't have (if it had been the other way around, he would have been some 6 seconds behind Webber after the final round of pit stops), and ignored instructions from the pit wall. Bad example of race management. Then again, i wouldn't expect you to understand this.

[PlatinumZealot]

as has been oft discussed vettel's big gain has been his ability to put his pedal to the metal early on corner exit , making full use of the downforce on the RBR

if reports are to be believed a lot more sensitivity will be required in 2014 and although I have no doubt that vettel will adapt ...I also doubt that there is anyone more sensitive than button which is why ~I felt he would be the biggest gainer

Being sensitive is one thing, but being precise in your response to those changes is another. In a control system you could have the best sensors, but if your effectors are only as precise as a battering ram then you aint gonna get good system control. Button is known to be very sensitive but while he can feel minute changes in his car he rarely has the nous to instantly react to those in car changes. Don't get me wrong, he is the best to reacting to the environment around the car, but he is notorious for not being able to adapt to changes in car behavior.

~I see that as an oxymoron ...the biggest changes in car behaviour occur in changing conditions during the race , which is the very time that button seems to get his best results

You know what I mean.
Jenson is out of his element if the car suddenly changes on him, be it environment induced or otherwise. (canada 2012, Korea 2011?)
However when he predicts the environmental changes correctly, he is not as badly affected. (Brazil 2012)

[munudeges]

I think it´s the exact opposite. You´ll want to get on the throttle as late as you possibly can to make sure the car is as much in a straight line as possible.
Early throttle application pre-apex is only going to work the rears harder then you need to.
Better to throw the car in, lean on the fronts as much as possible, get the car straighter then apply all the torque and power.

There is absolutely no way that's going to be the preferred driving style nor will there be any chance of the Pirelli tyres taking it.

Early throttle application does not work the rear tyres harder. Quite the opposite. Using what Jim Clark would call a 'false apex' you straighten the car earlier in the corner and get the power down earlier and more gradually.

[mnmracer]

Prime example of Vettel is where he managed his car perfectly at Malaysia 2013 - kept on Webbers ass but had a load of tyre life and fuel left at the crucial point. Not to rehash the whole event, but he proved to be the guy who had driven the fastest and smartest race that day.

It is also really difficult to get a fastest lap now if you're a top 6 contender as the guys in the midfield who put a set of tyres on with 5 laps to go WILL beat your time due to the fresher rubber, but Vettel has always got that bit of tyre life at the end to go for that fastest lap.

There's nothing bad about the example. Fact is that at the end of the race, Vettel had better tires and more fuel left.

Jumped to slick tyres too early, got the undercut when he shouldn't have (if it had been the other way around, he would have been some 6 seconds behind Webber after the final round of pit stops), and ignored instructions from the pit wall. Bad example of race management. Then again, i wouldn't expect you to understand this.

Of all those things, only the first has to do with a mistake in race management.
Malaysia is a good example of excellent race management because of how he put himself in the position to win, despite the setbacks of an early tire change and two team-orders against him.

The team giving Vettel the undercut while behind -like they have done so often for Webber as well (FACT)- has absolutely nothing to do with a driver's race management.

How is ignoring instructions from a team that would not give him a fair chance to fight for victory (FACT) an example of bad race management?

He was given a team-order early on (FACT) and was told that he would get his chance to challenge Webber later on (FACT). He managed his race so that he was ready to fight for the win, and did so successfully, even after the team came back on their word (FACT).

[Gerhard Berger]

The team giving Vettel the undercut (unfairly) had everything to do with it. If Webber had got the undercut (as was the case in the previous 2 rounds of pit stops), Vettel would have ended some 6 seconds behind Webber (and possibly behind Hamilton too). His fuel saving and tyre saving would have counted for diddly squat. Webber would have cruised home for victory, and we'd be talking about how Webber did a great job to manage the race, holding off Vettel and the Mercs.

Vettel knows the way Red Bull work - they're not allowed to race after the final round if pit stops, so the idea of him saving tyres and fuel for the last stint was not a smart move. If he could have passed Webber earlier in the race, he would have. He couldn't, hence he asked for team orders (get him out of the way, he's too slow). The team said he could challenge him later on, though they didn't say he could challenge him in the final stint. He ignored that, because it was the only way he could win the race.

[mnmracer]

The team giving Vettel the undercut (unfairly) had everything to do with it.

Are you denying the fact that the team has often given Webber the undercut as well when he was behind Vettel?
Or are you arguing the double standard that it is only unfair if Vettel is given the undercut?

Webber would have cruised home for victory, and we'd be talking about how Webber did a great job to manage the race, holding off Vettel and the Mercs.

At which point did Webber actual hold of Vettel without the help of team-orders? I don't remember people talking about how Hamilton did a great job holding off Rosberg, so why would Webber be praised for 'holding off' Vettel when the team used team-orders to (try to) hold back Vettel since lap 23? Again, a double standard.

Vettel knows the way Red Bull work - they're not allowed to race after the final round if pit stops,

That is a false statement for which you provide no source.

so the idea of him saving tyres and fuel for the last stint was not a smart move.

Again, a false statement.
In lap 23 (or there-about), the team told him not to challenge Webber, and assured him he would be given his chance later on.

If he could have passed Webber earlier in the race, he would have.

At which point exactly, between being told not to challenge Webber, falling further behind Webber because Webber was given the first pit stop because he was leading as the result of a team-order, and more team-orders?

He couldn't, hence he asked for team orders (get him out of the way, he's too slow).

Another false statement. This message came a few laps after, and in the same stint as, Red Bull's team order not to challenge Webber.

I will kindly ask you once to refrain from making false and deceptive statements. If you want to apply your usual double standards, sad but fine, but do not make false statement, or otherwise I will report you to the moderators.

[ChrisF1]

I stand by my belief that Vettel managed his car, tyres and fuel better than Webber, much as Rosberg bettered Hamilton that way. Don't really see the need to argue about all this, it was purely an example that I used because it stuck out in my mind as I was reading the thread.

Back on topic all!

[munudeges]

I think it´s the exact opposite. You´ll want to get on the throttle as late as you possibly can to make sure the car is as much in a straight line as possible.
Early throttle application pre-apex is only going to work the rears harder then you need to.
Better to throw the car in, lean on the fronts as much as possible, get the car straighter then apply all the torque and power.

There will be absolutely no gain as well from being on the throttle pre-apex. (oither then shifting weight off the front wheels)

I agree. Fast in, slow out, will be the order of the day.

I don't know where people are getting this ludicrous notion from. It's exactly the opposite - slow in fast out, and creating what Jim Clark would call a 'false apex' for best exit.

Early throttle application does not work the rears harder at all and applying the power all at once when you're coming out of a corner, possibly still moving sideways, is something the Pirellis are highly unlikely to be able to take for any length of time. The way to manage this is to straighten the car much earlier, nose into the apex, better rotation, and get on the power more gradually and earlier.