which driver will gain most from 2014 regs ?

[Gerhard Berger]

I agree. Fast in, slow out, will be the order of the day.

I don't know where people are getting this ludicrous notion from. It's exactly the opposite - slow in fast out, and creating what Jim Clark would call a 'false apex' for best exit.

Early throttle application does not work the rears harder at all and applying the power all at once when you're coming out of a corner, possibly still moving sideways, is something the Pirellis are highly unlikely to be able to take for any length of time. The way to manage this is to straighten the car much earlier, nose into the apex, better rotation, and get on the power more gradually and earlier.

=D>

This is the driving style that Alonso mastered in early 2012 (his onboards from Canada, Monaco and Valencia demostrated this superbly). It shows that a "smooth" driving style is not always best for the tyres.

[Gerhard Berger]

Many have talked about the drivers have to manage the throttle and an unstable rear on the exit of a corner. Next year, we'll also have the fuel limit, meaning fuel saving will be more important. Does anyone know if any driver is particularly strong at this? I remember when i first started watching F1 that Frentzen was known to be great at fuel saving, and this was best demonstrated with his win at the French Grand Prix in 99. Any drivers of the current generations who are known for fuel saving?

[sennafan24]

Who will gain the most?

I am not sure, I do think Seb will be quick to adapt. In 2013 he showed he could get the most out of his car at all times, Webber never finished ahead when both finished. This was a marked improvement from the start of 2012 where Webber finished ahead a few times and managed to out-qualify Seb more often.

Regardless of the car performance, Seb seemed quick to adapt.

I have lost a bit of confidence in Lewis, who was wildly inconsistent in 2013, and struggled when the cars performance dipped relative to Rosberg (look at Spain for example)

I am a believer that the greats have a toolkit to adapt no matter what the scenario. Schumacher adapted to multiple regulation changes in his long career, Prost changed teams many times and achieved results, and in 1994 Senna almost lapped Damon Hill in his first race at Williams (which Newey has stated was a very hard and inconsistent car to drive)

We will have to wait and see, but I have more confidence in some drivers than others.

[munudeges]

This is the driving style that Alonso mastered in early 2012 (his onboards from Canada, Monaco and Valencia demostrated this superbly). It shows that a "smooth" driving style is not always best for the tyres.

What I've described is a smooth driving style. The fact that I mentioned Jim Clark should be enough to tell you that.

[raymondu999]

This is the driving style that Alonso mastered in early 2012 (his onboards from Canada, Monaco and Valencia demostrated this superbly). It shows that a "smooth" driving style is not always best for the tyres.

What I've described is a smooth driving style. The fact that I mentioned Jim Clark should be enough to tell you that.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-jAk-i5A_s[/youtube]

Logically speaking, the cars will have better forward acceleration, but worse lateral acceleration. Therefore, minimising the need for lateral acceleration (ie carrying speed) and instead maximising thr time you're accelerating forwards will lean towards a later apex being better.

It will also mean that the drivers who tend to use rear end acrobatics to slide the rear into the corner will lose, because you will lose relatively more forward acceleration

[Kansas]

Button can't handle torque oversteer so he is definitely gonna lose in my opinion.

Not only that, he also can't cope with understeer. We've seen time after time how button is nowhere when the car is not perfectly neutral front and rear ("no grip" phrase) while ham is flying into the distance. Next years cars will be all about oversteer, so Ham could potentially come out on top.
We've also seen Rai struggling this year when the balance shifted to the front (aka oversteer) in his LWB compared to grosjan.
Alonso can pretty much deal with anything that is thrown at him as far as I know. Given the choice he does prefer understeer, so it'll be interesting to see what he does next year.
Vettel is a bit hard to judge. All pointers suggest he'll be the biggest looser next year, but it's still a bit of stretch to expect him to massively struggle.

if anything, the LWB is understeering too much that Kimi is suffering.

Its well known that Kimi like oversteer

[Steven]

Obviously this is a thread that was destined to end up in fanboy yin-yang, so a number of posts have been moved.
Another bunch of posts were plainly removed, as bickering isn't worth a move.

[munudeges]

Logically speaking, the cars will have better forward acceleration, but worse lateral acceleration. Therefore, minimising the need for lateral acceleration (ie carrying speed) and instead maximising thr time you're accelerating forwards will lean towards a later apex being better.

No, the mistake you're making here is that it's all relative. Besides, as I've said, hanging a car out and bringing the power in all at once later is something the Pirellis next year will almost certainly not handle. The power delivery of these engines are going to be somewhat different and that means maximising that trait, and that means straightening the car sooner out of a corner, power earlier and bringing it in in a much more controlled fashion. The idea around here that a driver is going to untidily hang a car out and bring all the power in all at once next year on these tyres with those engines is plain ludicrous.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by 'forward acceleration' and 'lateral acceleration'. They are meaningless terms in this case. If it's not forward then it's wasted time. Anything else is a trade off to getting the car rotated through the corner.

[tuj]

While I don't really like him as a driver, Alonso manages snap oversteer better than anyone IMHO. I think we'll be seeing a lot more spins, so being able to manage the snap/twitch nature of the cars is going to be critical. Also, I agree that any driver at this level knows how to handle power-oversteer. Its being able to wrestle a twitchy car to the finish line without any major incidents that Alonso seems to excel at.

Hamilton, if they can give him a car that doesn't eat its tires alive, may have a real chance. He seems to prefer a twitchy-er car to most drivers which I think is ultimately faster if it can be handled.

[munudeges]

Power oversteer is exactly what you don't want, even though that might well be the trait that these cars will have.

[tuj]

No I fully agree that power over-steer is not desirable at all. But some degree of over-steer, be it through trail-braking or via weight transfer/dynamic alignment changes, or through aero maps, probably is desirable. Obviously a car that under-steers is generally considered easier to drive, but a car that rotates on demand is better at the apexes.

[Tim.Wright]

Logically speaking, the cars will have better forward acceleration, but worse lateral acceleration. Therefore, minimising the need for lateral acceleration (ie carrying speed) and instead maximising thr time you're accelerating forwards will lean towards a later apex being better.

No, the mistake you're making here is that it's all relative. Besides, as I've said, hanging a car out and bringing the power in all at once later is something the Pirellis next year will almost certainly not handle. The power delivery of these engines are going to be somewhat different and that means maximising that trait, and that means straightening the car sooner out of a corner, power earlier and bringing it in in a much more controlled fashion. The idea around here that a driver is going to untidily hang a car out and bring all the power in all at once next year on these tyres with those engines is plain ludicrous.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by 'forward acceleration' and 'lateral acceleration'. They are meaningless terms in this case. If it's not forward then it's wasted time. Anything else is a trade off to getting the car rotated through the corner.

Until the tyre spec is released this is nothing but wandwaving and hardly worth discussing in my opinion.

Also, I don't get this prediction of torque oversteer. Once the drivers adapt to the grip levels of the new tyres, they will simply use less throttle than before which means they will be traction limited for a little longer if at all. A lot of these drivers have driven more powerful cars. It not as though a few extra Nm is going to cause them all to suddenly fly off the track.

[turbof1]

One thing you forget there, Tim: drivers aren't traction control. There are drivers out there we have a better feel for grip. I can still remember for example Hamilton having excellent starts in wet conditions back when they ran grooved tyres. That kind of become a bit more redundant when full slick tyres provided more grip to start with, but with more torque you could get into that situation again. Alonso also has this, but brings in experience from the V10 era. Most drivers today actually don't have that kind of experience. Out of the top 5 teams, only alonso, raikkonen and button have driven V10's. Further back the field the only one I can think of is Massa. So 5 drivers in total out of 22 who haven driven more powerful engines. I don't call that a lot. Those 5 probably can handle the coming engine better then the average of the field, but it'll probably be a short-lived advantage. After a while it comes down how well the driver predicts and reacts on excessive torque. There will be drivers who will get several tenths a lap out of that.

Of course they will not all of a sudden constantly slidder of the track, rather they will most probably be too careful with putting the power down. Drivers who are more about throwing the car in the corners will actually handle this much better then drivers who have a sleek, smooth driving style.

[Tim.Wright]

I'd say a top level driver is traction control, since they are a closed loop system that reacts to the vehicle condition to reduce wheelspin. Either way, once the they understand the tyres, the only reason that you would see EXCESSIVE oversteer is if the tyres are made badly. And if the tyres are made badly, its 50/50 as to whether it will be OS or US anyway.

Until we see the tyres there is really nothing to talk about.

[turbof1]

I'd say a top level driver is traction control, since they are a closed loop system that reacts to the vehicle condition to reduce wheelspin.

In essence everything that reacts on wheelspin is traction control. However, human drivers will never, and really never come close to electronic traction. The way the latter works is with sensors at the wheel, but a human brain first has to register the wheelspin, which will already be bigger then with electronic traction control, process that and then react on it. Takes way too much time, even for an F1 driver, so instead of that they try to predict it, but that's difficult with all kinds of factors having an influence on wheelspin. And the more the car is prone to wheelspin, the more wheelspin will effectively take place.

Until we see the tyres there is really nothing to talk about.

That opinion kind of blocks off this thread doesn't it? As everything we talk about in this topic is about future events, there is nothing wrong with speculating. Nobody has to be right or wrong on this.

That said, we know Pirelli wants to make more conservative tyres that can handle the wheel spin or alteast don't get shredded under wheelspin. I feel it'll more be towards the latter because you can only do much within the dimensions you are forced into as a tyre manufacturer, so we'll see harder, sturdier tyres but which can't completely avoid the wheel spin.