which driver will gain most from 2014 regs ?

[Tim.Wright]

Until we see the tyres there is really nothing to talk about.

That opinion kind of blocks off this thread doesn't it? As everything we talk about in this topic is about future events, there is nothing wrong with speculating. Nobody has to be right or wrong on this.

Thats my point. There is nothing to talk about. Thats why the discussion decended into ying ying a couple days ago.

Pirelli aren't stupid. They will at least attempt to compensate for the different torque levels. Whether they overdo it and make the cars US or underdo it and make the cars OS is completely unknown.

[munudeges]

......as for who'll benefit, it'll be the most experienced and sensitive drivers. Button should be OK but I just can't see him having the speed. The problem with Button is he spends too much time getting through a corner. Raikkonen should be OK because his driving style is about thinking in straight lines and he was extremely good in 2005 when a set of tyres had to last a race, although he will have to find a way with the front end, and Alonso has proved pretty adaptable to whatever tyre has come along. Vettel is a bit of an unknown quantity but I'm sure he'll find himself a way.

I simply cannot see Pirelli producing a tyre like the Michelin from the mid 00s where you could lean right on the front-end. Completely different research and development, philosophy and construction. Tidy lines into corners and sensitivity on the throttle are going to be required. That pretty much wipes out most of the grid as far as I'm concerned.

[turbof1]

Until we see the tyres there is really nothing to talk about.

That opinion kind of blocks off this thread doesn't it? As everything we talk about in this topic is about future events, there is nothing wrong with speculating. Nobody has to be right or wrong on this.

Thats my point. There is nothing to talk about. Thats why the discussion decended into ying ying a couple days ago.

Pirelli aren't stupid. They will at least attempt to compensate for the different torque levels. Whether they overdo it and make the cars US or underdo it and make the cars OS is completely unknown.

The reason for the ying yang was down to idiotic behaviour. IMO, if everybody could keep away from reading non-existent insults to their favorite drivers, then that doesn't happen. I respect your opinion if you don't find it contain much, it isn't a technical topic, but others here, including myself, find this an interesting topic. Why just not respect that? Anyway, I'm not going further into this; too much derailing.

......as for who'll benefit, it'll be the most experienced and sensitive drivers. Button should be OK but I just can't see him having the speed. The problem with Button is he spends too much time getting through a corner. Raikkonen should be OK because his driving style is about thinking in straight lines and he was extremely good in 2005 when a set of tyres had to last a race, although he will have to find a way with the front end, and Alonso has proved pretty adaptable to whatever tyre has come along. Vettel is a bit of an unknown quantity but I'm sure he'll find himself a way.

I simply cannot see Pirelli producing a tyre like the Michelin from the mid 00s where you could lean right on the front-end. Completely different research and development, philosophy and construction. Tidy lines into corners and sensitivity on the throttle are going to be required. That pretty much wipes out most of the grid as far as I'm concerned.

I think tidy lines will be problematic. Either you loose too much speed with being too careful with the throttle, as in your explanation with Button, or you handle the oversteer but also accept it isn't perfect. Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton probably will get this right, Rosberg and Vettel might also. Most other drivers will have issues to adapt because they haven't driven anything else then something with high tyre wear and more then enough downforce to have a car on rails.

Webber definitely might have enjoyed 2014.

[raymondu999]

Logically speaking, the cars will have better forward acceleration, but worse lateral acceleration. Therefore, minimising the need for lateral acceleration (ie carrying speed) and instead maximising thr time you're accelerating forwards will lean towards a later apex being better.

[...] straightening the car sooner out of a corner, power earlier and bringing it in in a much more controlled fashion. [...]

Hence the term "late apex," darling.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by 'forward acceleration' and 'lateral acceleration'.

Acceleration in the forward direction and lateral directions. What else? Forward acceleration is building speed on a straight - lateral acceleration is rotating the car's heading through the corner. Simple physics.

If it's not forward then it's wasted time.

Must be why late, hard braking is such a valued trait.

[tkulla]

Another factor to consider is the reduced fuel capacity, which should make the cars easier to set up for qualifying. In 2014 the cars will only be able to hold 100kg of fuel, which is 60kg less than last year. This means that it should be easier to find a balance that works when the cars are full and when they are running on fumes. This will benefit drivers who have trouble finding a good balance for both Q and the race (usually to the detriment of their Q setup). It will also benefit us as viewers since the cars won't be quite so dog slow in the early laps.

[kalinka]

This means that it should be easier to find a balance that works when the cars are full and when they are running on fumes.

Looks like a perfect scene for Mercedes and their FRIC system

I think the question of who will be the new master of control is not that black/white. We may see the most experienced drivers doing well at the beginning, but later any of the other drivers could find the same confidence.
I'm no fan of them, but I can't wait to see how the "wild ones" like Maldonaldo and Perez would handle these cars. It should be fun, but slow

[Gerhard Berger]

That said, we know Pirelli wants to make more conservative tyres that can handle the wheel spin or alteast don't get shredded under wheelspin. I feel it'll more be towards the latter because you can only do much within the dimensions you are forced into as a tyre manufacturer, so we'll see harder, sturdier tyres but which can't completely avoid the wheel spin.

I always thought the Pirelli tyres were always fine at handling excessive wheelspin. We never saw excessive degredation at traction heavy circuits like Monaco, Canada, Singapore. Compare that to the Bridgestones, who chewed through the tyres in races like Monaco 2009, Canada 2010 and Singapore 2010 (at least with the Mclarens).

Pirelli's couldn't handle excessive load being put in the tyres but wheelspin was fine. Bridgestones were the opposite.

[raymondu999]

That said, we know Pirelli wants to make more conservative tyres that can handle the wheel spin or alteast don't get shredded under wheelspin. I feel it'll more be towards the latter because you can only do much within the dimensions you are forced into as a tyre manufacturer, so we'll see harder, sturdier tyres but which can't completely avoid the wheel spin.

I always thought the Pirelli tyres were always fine at handling excessive wheelspin. We never saw excessive degredation at traction heavy circuits like Monaco, Canada, Singapore. Compare that to the Bridgestones, who chewed through the tyres in races like Monaco 2009, Canada 2010 and Singapore 2010 (at least with the Mclarens).

Pirelli's couldn't handle excessive load being put in the tyres but wheelspin was fine. Bridgestones were the opposite.

Yep. Pirellis degrade, Bridgestones wear. Generally speaking.

[lebesset]

just had a look at the jackie stewart video clip posted by raymond
although it purports to be about driving style at monaco he states that in reality it applies anywhere , and quotes fangio as saying the same thing ; although his comments about gear selection no longer pertain due to technology changes the rest seems to me to be as valid as it ever was

strange thing is that I read almost the same thing a couple of months ago , but it was from 2 drivers doing simulator develop work for the 2014 cars , one was DLR but have forgotten which driver/team the other one was from

they agreed that the last of the late brakers style would no longer be the best approach ,that what would be required was earlier , smoother braking .....followed by more gradual power application at an earlier point ; presumably the increased acceleration enabled by getting the car lined up earlier saved more time than was lost through the corner

uncannily like what jackie stewart said 40 years ago , and apparently fangio even further back

[PlatinumZealot]

That was with Tubro beasts.. Where throttle response was like next week and you had to apply throttle much earlier.
I actually think Late in late out is going to be the way to go with these cars. Not to mention that the car has additional retardation in the form of a larger KERS battery.

For Qualifying I think the overseer style drivers, Lewis Hamilton lead amongst them, are going to benefit the most from the more natural, ragged form of driving that is going to be needed to keep these torque monsters on the black stuff.

I have no Idea who will benefit in the race though. It might end up being another 2 hour pamper and puff snooze-fest like the the last two years.

[beelsebob]

That was with Tubro beasts.. Where throttle response was like next week and you had to apply throttle much earlier.
I actually think Late in late out is going to be the way to go with these cars. Not to mention that the car has additional retardation in the form of a larger KERS battery.

For Qualifying I think the overseer style drivers, Lewis Hamilton lead amongst them, are going to benefit the most from the more natural, ragged form of driving that is going to be needed to keep these torque monsters on the black stuff.

I have no Idea who will benefit in the race though. It might end up being another 2 hour pamper and puff snooze-fest like the the last two years.

Remember, these cars can use HERS to spin up the turbo, and avoid any turbo lag, so it isn't necessarily the same as the days of old turbos.

[PlatinumZealot]

That is what I said.

[raymondu999]

That was with Tubro beasts.. Where throttle response was like next week and you had to apply throttle much earlier.
I actually think Late in late out is going to be the way to go with these cars. Not to mention that the car has additional retardation in the form of a larger KERS battery.

For Qualifying I think the overseer style drivers, Lewis Hamilton lead amongst them, are going to benefit the most from the more natural, ragged form of driving that is going to be needed to keep these torque monsters on the black stuff.

I have no Idea who will benefit in the race though. It might end up being another 2 hour pamper and puff snooze-fest like the the last two years.

Remember, these cars can use HERS to spin up the turbo, and avoid any turbo lag, so it isn't necessarily the same as the days of old turbos.

Question. With the reduced downforce, and apparently increased torque of the engines - would it even be worth it to spool the turbo so quickly? When the cars are traction-limited and not power limited anyways?

Remmeber that in theory, the turbo will only benefit the cars when they can bring that turbo power to the ground - which, based on what I gather in this thread, is not something the cars cannot do at low speeds (exactly when such HERS units can spool the turbo in the first place)

[SectorOne]

The problem with not having the turbo spooled up is you get a massive ketchup effect. Nothing nothing then everything.
With the turbo spooled you can modulate the power more easily through your right foot because the power is always there compared to not having it spooled up.

[lebesset]

one thing we don't seem to have considered is that pirelli wanted to increase the tyre section to cope with increased torque but the teams wouldn't accept it ......so the tyres will be sub optimal in that sense , hence more difficult to set up the car ?

have the teams shot themselves in the foot [ boots ? ] ...again !