Mclaren Mercedes 2014

[Del Boy]

Martin wasn't at the 20 minute staff meeting Ron held today. That must speak volumes. If the rumors about losing title sponsor are true and if that sponsor was Telmex then somebody must have worked out sacking Sergio had a consequence or is that why Martin was so keen to help him find a 2014 drive, hoping that would not upset Carlos too much and sweeten the pil.

Martins reign has been a catalogue of disasters. 75% of the cars designed under his reign have been poor out of the box (although that also co insides with Paddy Lowes involvement) and the team has worked hard to improve it during the season but have always started too far back. The MP4/28 being the biggest mystery ever - take the fastest car of 2012 the MP4/27 and turn it into 6th fastest car by completely redesigning it and adding pull rod suspension. All that without a major rule change! Madness.

I won't blame Hamilton's departure on Martin as believe Ron had something to do with that. I will say that Martin has done great job of appeasing the FIA and he does appear to get along with Ferrari very well!!!

[FoxHound]

Whitmarsh isn't responsible for design direction. The front pull rods where part of a change due to the 2012 mclaren reaching the absolute peak of what they could muster from that particular design.
Alot of mclaren PR is testimony to that.

He is accountable for the team, not responsible for design direction.

Also we have to factor in that Whitmarsh' tenure as team principle coincided with Mercedes pulling the plug on them leaving less pennies available to spend on the car as has usually been the case.
And there is the added distraction of mclaren becoming a "manufacturer" in its own right.

Barring the pit stop errors I dont really see how Dennis would have achieved more in the same circumstances.

[Del Boy]

Of course he is responsible for design decisions. The expression is the buck stops here.

[Glyn]

Whitmarsh isn't responsible for design direction. The front pull rods where part of a change due to the 2012 mclaren reaching the absolute peak of what they could muster from that particular design.
Alot of mclaren PR is testimony to that.

He is accountable for the team, not responsible for design direction.

Also we have to factor in that Whitmarsh' tenure as team principle coincided with Mercedes pulling the plug on them leaving less pennies available to spend on the car as has usually been the case.
And there is the added distraction of mclaren becoming a "manufacturer" in its own right.

Barring the pit stop errors I dont really see how Dennis would have achieved more in the same circumstances.

Do you really believe all that nonsense?

It's a shame Red Bull manage to evolve their cars quite nicely... and are never stuck for ideas.

[FoxHound]

Of course he is responsible for design decisions. The expression is the buck stops here.

I explained he is accountable for the team. And this encompasses the design team.
But he is not a designer and nor is he part of the design team that designs the car.
If paddy lowe says the car has reached its zenith and a new direction is required, you must make the call.

And this here is where I dont see this being any failing of whitmarsh. Dennis would likely have been consulted before any firm decision was made too. Therefore we can say that it is likely the status quo would remain the same regardless of whether Dennis or Whitmarsh was at the helm.

[FoxHound]

@ glyn

Do you really believe the mp4 lineage from 2009 onwards was in the same ball park as the RB lineage of the same time?
If so, fair play to you.

[dren]

This is taken from another website from a guy who is almost always right about this stuff. Most of what he says has come true:

Ron Dennis has took over as CEO,replacing Martin Whitmarsh!

Ron is back in control of the company.

The Team Principal will be announced next month.(Brawn?)

The F1 car will be most likely orange.

Who is this guy?

Not quite sure but he mainly talks about Honda rumors and has nailed just about every one of them. The F1 stuff has come out since Honda is joining with Mclaren. I had somebody join this forum and PM me asking me about where I got my information when I posted Honda would join with Mclaren a while back.

[dren]

Whitmarsh isn't responsible for design direction. The front pull rods where part of a change due to the 2012 mclaren reaching the absolute peak of what they could muster from that particular design.
Alot of mclaren PR is testimony to that.

He is accountable for the team, not responsible for design direction.

Also we have to factor in that Whitmarsh' tenure as team principle coincided with Mercedes pulling the plug on them leaving less pennies available to spend on the car as has usually been the case.
And there is the added distraction of mclaren becoming a "manufacturer" in its own right.

Barring the pit stop errors I dont really see how Dennis would have achieved more in the same circumstances.

I have to agree there. The choice for Mclaren to be a "Ferrari" outside of F1 coincided with Mercedes wanting to become more involved. It was a win win for both teams to split at that point. The internal structure of Mclaren needs to be changed. Hamilton leaving was a big blow.

[munudeges]

Frankly I don't know what will change. The period of years with McLaren not managing to clinch any titles happened under his watch, as did the kind of muddled faith in a technical system that saw Adrian Newey leave, a succession of cars that haven't been up to that job and resulted in them turning a race winning car into the thing with a ludicrous front suspension they should never have changed last year.

For some reason McLaren have faith in a bunch of working methods that see them screw something up every time, whether it be reliability, strategy or snatching defeat from the jaws of a race winning car. Under a stable set of regulations you, never, ever change your car to the extent they did and never, ever, ever when you understand it and you've got it winning races.

With the kinds of decisions they made under Dennis and then Whitmarsh it's extremely difficult to see them ever beating Red Bull unless they luck into some kind of spectacular advantage.

[McG]

McLaren do ok against teams with different and more relaxed rules so I think Ron will be just as good as Martin. Actually maybe Ron will just make the FIA hate McLaren even more, at least Martins supposed passive attitude might have repaired some of the damage caused by Ron, then again I think everyone is wise to that plan. Someone has to be seen to take the blame for a bad period, just like McLaren would take the blame for nearly every Mercedes engine failure of which there were many.

I hope Ron comes back then McLaren become ultra competitive with Honda, maybe even dominate. But I'm sure nearly nearly every innovation of theirs will be banned very quickly.

[bauc]

I hope Ron comes back then McLaren become ultra competitive with Honda, maybe even dominate. But I'm sure nearly nearly every innovation of theirs will be banned very quickly.

Why, coz Ron will be in charge and they will be more restrictive towards MCL? c'mon man.......

[danielk]

I wonder. Did Ron always intend to return? Ron left i assume on the back end of the "spygate" he said it was for other resons but spygate was 2007 July time they were then fined in about sept probably paid it winter 2007 He did not want it to appear he was stepping down due to spygate so remained in charge for 2008, however realizing what damage the thing had caused mclaren had to put a new face up there so he resigned before the 2009 season was under way. Mclaren needed someone who was a pleasant guy, give Mclaren an image of this more responsible team. Witmarsh fitted that and although has not done great at bringing championships i think he has repaired allot of the damage caused in 2007. (i say this but then i remember the Hamilton overtaking under the safety car scandal, and blatant lies)

However Mclarens image has now repaired, Vodafone no longer being sponsors (could this have been a deal breaker back then? vodafone began sponsorship at the beginning of 2007 7 months in "spygate" i think vodafone deal was worth something like £500 mill to mclaren. Could they have insisted Ron step down? and now they have gone he steps back up. hmmmmmmm) The 2013 season is in my view a good excuse to get Ron back at the head of Mclaren but I think other reasons are behind it.

[McG]

I hope Ron comes back then McLaren become ultra competitive with Honda, maybe even dominate. But I'm sure nearly nearly every innovation of theirs will be banned very quickly.

Why, coz Ron will be in charge and they will be more restrictive towards MCL? c'mon man.......

I think they will always, in our lifetime anyway, be restrictive to McLaren. I don't know if they saw through the whole get Martin to play nice guy for a while but it certainly didn't do McLaren any good anyway.

I was going to say I want McLaren to come back and dominate while Ron is in charge and just being hip usual hard hitting blunt self. But the domination would have to come first, which I actually don't want. I like McLaren and want them to win but domination is quite boring.

What I'm basically saying is I want Ron to give them the middle finger while one of their drivers crosses the finish line to win the championship by 1 point! Ok I'm not a gracious winner clearly.

[McG]

Very probable.

I wonder. Did Ron always intend to return? Ron left i assume on the back end of the "spygate" he said it was for other resons but spygate was 2007 July time they were then fined in about sept probably paid it winter 2007 He did not want it to appear he was stepping down due to spygate so remained in charge for 2008, however realizing what damage the thing had caused mclaren had to put a new face up there so he resigned before the 2009 season was under way. Mclaren needed someone who was a pleasant guy, give Mclaren an image of this more responsible team. Witmarsh fitted that and although has not done great at bringing championships i think he has repaired allot of the damage caused in 2007. (i say this but then i remember the Hamilton overtaking under the safety car scandal, and blatant lies)

However Mclarens image has now repaired, Vodafone no longer being sponsors (could this have been a deal breaker back then? vodafone began sponsorship at the beginning of 2007 7 months in "spygate" i think vodafone deal was worth something like £500 mill to mclaren. Could they have insisted Ron step down? and now they have gone he steps back up. hmmmmmmm) The 2013 season is in my view a good excuse to get Ron back at the head of Mclaren but I think other reasons are behind it.

[dren]

Ron rejoins as head 5 years to the day he "stepped" down. He doesn't plan to be on the pit wall so I expect either Brawn or Whitmarsh to be TP.