What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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hollus
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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tuj wrote:make the sport more competitive. the more drivers on the grid who can win, the better the viewership and interest in sponsorship. To do this, they need to let the back-marker teams test more.
(The underlining is mine.)
I think we should concentrate in the midfiled and backmarker teams. If corporations or manufacturers want to come in, spend 400M a year and then leave for political reasons, that has nothing to do with sustainability. That Sauber has the problems it has and HRT dissapears, that is the real problem to be addressed.
And there, giving Sauber a better chance of reaching podiums or Marissua a realistic one of scratching a point on merit here or there would help massively. And that can be achieved through said testing.

Consider how expensive it is for them to go testing to a circuit, they pay for the flights and transport, they pay for the extra engines and, indirectly, they pay for the tires as well.
A solution to both things, one that has been considered before: testing on race weekends, in particular on monday so as not to interfere with the weekend's action.

If they were to implement a testing session on monday after each race (permanent circuits only, obviously), the cars are already there, the engineers and mechanics are already there, they only need an extra hotel night for half of the personnel, spares are already there, telemetry is already there and set up. Engines are already there, often including new ones as spare for the raceable ones. Some unsused tires are already there, as are many half-used ones. Fuel rigs, there, security and medical resources, there, etc, etc. This testing would be much cheaper than off weekend testing, which couldbe eliminated, and I presume relatively cheaper than some wind tunnel hours for the very smallest teams.

Now the twist: Allocate those monday testing laps based on finishing positions or, to avoid extreme drop-out tactics, say the average pasition over the race, or the positions 10 laps from the end. One car per team to minimize personnel needed. If you are marussia and you average position was 20, for two cars, that's 40 testing laps. You are Sauber, average position 12, 24 testing laps. You made a 1-2? 3 laps.

It is similar to a weight handicap formula, only that next weekends all cars are the same, only the gained experience differs. Ths way, teams in the back would get more experience for their drivers, and get to test new pieces in real size. They might even get to try wet tires after a dry race, and if then in the next weekend it rains only on sunday... Medium teams, even the ones almost at the podium, can sort aero maps in constant speed runs, etc.
In the back, most testing for the year could be achieved this way. In the middle of the pack, the very significant number of laps could allow real size aero testing allowing for the occasional surprise, and at the very front, you achieve a small winning penalty.

Caveat: with the current rules, engine and transmission have to last many races and can't take extra laps, but in most (not all) races, there is a spare set available that only comes in if the ones for the race break down, often brand new ones. So when that doesn't happen, those can be used. Or otherwise those can be flown for this purpose and simply by allocating an extra engine and gearbox for all testing needed in teh whole year, teams get to test at most races.

Win-win-win situation, IMHO.
In most cases, the majority is below the average.

Trocola
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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There is something I do not understand about the need of money from teams. In Spain, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona have a budget of 500 milion euros each. That's more than Ferrari, Red Bull and Lotus' budgets together.

What F1 teams need, in my opinion, is to get all the money tv pays for the F1, not a small part. The problem is Ecclestone

Pup
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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F1 earns 370 million euro in total from tv rights, so that's not going to get you anywhere close to 500 million per team. Plus FOM gives the teams more than that already.

edit - just out of curiosity, what on earth does a football team do with 500 million euro a year?
Last edited by Pup on 15 Jan 2014, 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

Pup
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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hollus wrote:If they were to implement a testing session on monday after each race (permanent circuits only, obviously), the cars are already there, the engineers and mechanics are already there, they only need an extra hotel night for half of the personnel, spares are already there, telemetry is already there and set up.
...
Now the twist: Allocate those monday testing laps based on finishing positions or, to avoid extreme drop-out tactics, say the average pasition over the race, or the positions 10 laps from the end.
I agree about Monday testing (or even Thursday). This has always seemed like a no brainer, and my only guess as to why they haven't implemented it is that maybe the smaller teams feel like they don't get as much out of testing as the larger teams, so any testing is a net loss for them. That's to say, you might be able to afford to test, but if you can't afford to develop the car from the info gained, then what's the point?

The weighted testing is an interesting idea. I don't think you'd have to complicate it with average laps or whatever - I don't think a team would sacrifice points just to test a few extra laps.

Moxie
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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Weighted testing is certainly an interesting proposal, but if it is to be, I'd prefer if the weighting were done annually according to WCC positions. I suggest this for a few of reasons.

1) Testing still costs money, and for teams that are already scraping by, budgets need to be planned.
2) Extra inter-season testing will give those backfield teams to develop a competitive car before the season starts.
3) The possibility of gaming the system has already been mentioned, especially if the last races of the season are worth double points.
4) I would consider this to be another gimmick like DRS, tires that only last five laps...etc.
5) Balanced with a more equitable prize payout schedule, teams would be unlikely to pass up extra prize money to sandbag for more testing time.

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idfx
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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are technical ideas
- Testing the new regulations in other categories and refine until they are viable F1.
- An upgrade of the bi-fuel engines. Gasoline, ethanol, diesel etc.... increasing alternative suppliers and teams.
- Develop a technology with pirelli tires remodeling. More economically and ecologically.
- Partnering with Petrobas with development of tar (pich) carbon fiber. The cost per kg -> 50$ to 1000$, with new technology 10$ to 15$.
- Develop tires with more grip for teams to focus on aerodynamic speed.
- Build wind tunnels and offer all times and ban the use of parts developed in tunies particular winds. All teams need not rent, making this equipment. And inspection and maintenance would be FIA. Could be made ​​an X number of tunies wind in Europe, America and Asia.
- When a company develops bad product alternatives are: create a new item or creates new improvements to not lose customers and market. Breaking engines, tires exploding creates a negative image of these products bad. Many companies go out of F1 or does not want to enter because of the regulation.
- do tests on a category below f1 is more prudent.
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CHT
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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wesley123 wrote:
CHT wrote:F1 should and will remain an expensive and technological advance racing series. If it become cheap, they will lose sponsors and casual fans; those who are mostly attracted by glam and blinks of the sports. For hardcore fans, they are not important, but for sponsors they are still eye balls.

Instead of making F1 cheaper, F1 should perhaps make F1 technical regulation more relevant to road cars so that more manufacturers could join the sports.
Formula 1 never was road car relevant and I don't see how it ever would be. Autosport never has been road car relevant, the 24hrs of LE Mans maybe, but that is about it. I can't think of anything that started it's way in racing that has proven to be such an important part in road cars after that. It is the other way around.
Focusing on fuel efficiency and energy recovery is one major steps closer to road cars. And this get car manufacturers excited if FIA continue to move in that direction.

wesley123
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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Okay, I agree on that. Sadly enough, F1 does not do that. I mean, how can you be 'green' or add anything to fuel efficiency when the engine is frozen for development?
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Pup
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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What the car companies want is the perception of road relevancy. Actual relevancy is, well, irrelevant.

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turbof1
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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Some structural things:

-More parts bought together. Although almost every part is heavily customized and unique from team to team, things like electronics and brake discs could be standarized, and bought with all teams together. Bigger purchases ussually mean bigger discounts, reducing the cost/part.
-Although I am absolutely against a budget cap, I do feel like teams are going to easy with debts. Every team out there is late with paying suppliers, which next to damaging credibility also hampers discounts. Lots of suppliers give discounts when paying on time, and F1 is clearly bend on missing that.
-Teams should be forced to unite under one banner. Period. They are powerless each own, but we've seen what they are capable of doing when they worked together in the FOTA. It simply gives them much more power on the negotiation table.
#AeroFrodo

tuj
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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VVT is a highly road-relevant technology. Heck, I think even the new F-150 (the truck) has it. Yet it is banned in F1. Surely VVT timing is not beyond the reach and understanding of the engine manufacturers. Yet for some reason it is a banned technology. And then consider that variable length intakes will be allowed in 2015, which is not that road-relevant. STUPID.

Another problem is that with the modern monocoque-engine-tranny layout, you have to make the engine *way* more rigid than in a road car. Solution: ban using the engine and transmission as stressed members.

Bring back the tire wars. Get rid of the front and rear wings and diffuser. Remove the engine freeze. Use reverse handicapping to let the backmarker teams test more. Allow for other engine designs, be they piston or other. The more innovation allowed, the better. Formula SAE on steroids.

Budget cap. Both on salaries and on resources. Chinese-wall between the road factory and the F1 team (ie. information and resources and only pass back to the road factory, not the other way around).

If you can't fill more than 50% of your grandstands over 3 seasons average, your race is eliminated from the calendar.

Oh and no more special treatment for Ferrari.

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SectorOne
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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tuj wrote:make the sport more competitive. the more drivers on the grid who can win, the better the viewership and interest in sponsorship. To do this, they need to let the back-marker teams test more.
You could argue and say that with that there´s no hero, no person to hate or get behind, every driver has a 10-20% chance of winning every time. The challenge would evaporate and everyone would win races.

It would be more competitive but would it really bring in more viewers? As much as i hate RBR dominating i don´t actually think it hurts the sport to the point many believe and actually it just makes it more popular.

It´s a very different viewpoint for sure though.

Ferrari is known through their absolute dominance, not because they played second fiddle to other teams.
Schumacher is a superstar not because he was in F1 but because he´s the most successful driver of all time.
Last edited by SectorOne on 17 Jan 2014, 23:39, edited 1 time in total.
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tuj
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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well I'm just saying, it works for NASCAR and the NFL, I don't see why it couldn't work for F1. The greats will still be great I think; they will still shine, they just might not win 91 races.

Moxie
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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SectorOne wrote: You could argue and say that with that there´s no hero, no person to hate or get behind, every driver has a 10-20% chance of winning every time. The challenge would evaporate and everyone would win races.

It would be more competitive but would it really bring in more viewers? As much as i hate RBR dominating i don´t actually think it hurts the sport to the point many believe and actually it just makes it more popular.

It´s a very different viewpoint for sure though.

Ferrari is known through their absolute dominance, not because they played second fiddle to other teams.
Schumacher is a superstar not because he was in F1 but because he´s the most successful driver of all time.
I don't think anyone is actually suggesting that "competitive" means that all teams have an equal chance of wining every time. But over the last three years the podium positions have been dominated by only four teams 75% of the time, and over the same three seasons an average of 57% of the teams don't reach the podium at all. It's getting pretty boring to watch.

Ferrari is known for their dominance...and that dominance is attained in no small part because of approx. $60 million in special payments it receives even if it finishes dead last in the WCC. There is little chance of competition improving as long as Bernie picks and chooses which teams get a financial advantage.

wesley123
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Re: What can possibly save Formula 1 financially?

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Moxie wrote: I don't think anyone is actually suggesting that "competitive" means that all teams have an equal chance of wining every time. But over the last three years the podium positions have been dominated by only four teams 75% of the time, and over the same three seasons an average of 57% of the teams don't reach the podium at all. It's getting pretty boring to watch.
Agreed, after over 60 years of that it gets rather boring
Ferrari is known for their dominance...and that dominance is attained in no small part because of approx. $60 million in special payments it receives even if it finishes dead last in the WCC. There is little chance of competition improving as long as Bernie picks and chooses which teams get a financial advantage.
Ferrari has rarely been dominant in Formula 1, only from 2000-2004 has that been the case, and that was before they received their 60 million dollars.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender