which driver will gain most from 2014 regs ?

[dans79]

I would suggest that Red Bull will be far from heartbroken at conservative tyres.

I think what they will be hart broken about is rule changes that all but eliminate down force generated by exhaust gasses, and the opening up engine regulations. Both changes will hurt them, and help their competitors.

[Kansas]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112074

Article on what the drivers will have to do differntly. Interesting that, according to Ferrari at least, "For some races 100kg [of fuel] is more than enough".

You might suggest that Vettel has shown himself particularly adept at changing his style to suit the way his car peforms best in recent years, but I also remember a video (or bunch of videos) from ray a while back showing how Alonso's style has changed so much throughout the years; having been through so many changes in regulations (and remained competitive throughout) you'd imagine he's quite good at it.

I can't agree mate.

When the regulation for where the teams could direct the exhaust gases changed it had a pretty big effect Vettels qualifying. Anytime the Red Bull lost rear downforce Vettel seemed to lose more ground relative to Webber in terms of pace. This tells me that Vettel performs optimally with a car which allows him to drive in a certain way. Vettel is a great racer so he always made his way back up the field.

Alonso has at trump card that I don't think many others (maybe Lewis), and that is he is better than anyone else at adapting his driving style to suit whatever the car demands. He isn't out and out the fastest racing driver I feel, especially when other racing drivers get the car setup just to their liking. But Alonso is universally very fast over such a wide range of car behaviours whereas Massa, Button, Vettel, Raikkonen, Webber and many others are only super fast in cars that suit their driving style.

I think if next year comes down to it, and it is a matter of who can adapt driving styles the best, then I personally see Alonso or Hamilton rising to the top and the likes of Vettel and others slipping down the order. If Vettel has one weakness, I feel it is his adaptability and his need to have a car allowing him to drive a certain way, he is super strong everywhere else.

Is that why Alonso was outqualified 6 to 7 times in 2nd half of the season?? because he's super adatable?? And lewis?? Guy has been a non factor in 2nd half of the season. hahahahahah

So much for fans stereotype.

[JimClarkFan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112074

Article on what the drivers will have to do differntly. Interesting that, according to Ferrari at least, "For some races 100kg [of fuel] is more than enough".

You might suggest that Vettel has shown himself particularly adept at changing his style to suit the way his car peforms best in recent years, but I also remember a video (or bunch of videos) from ray a while back showing how Alonso's style has changed so much throughout the years; having been through so many changes in regulations (and remained competitive throughout) you'd imagine he's quite good at it.

I can't agree mate.

When the regulation for where the teams could direct the exhaust gases changed it had a pretty big effect Vettels qualifying. Anytime the Red Bull lost rear downforce Vettel seemed to lose more ground relative to Webber in terms of pace. This tells me that Vettel performs optimally with a car which allows him to drive in a certain way. Vettel is a great racer so he always made his way back up the field.

Alonso has at trump card that I don't think many others (maybe Lewis), and that is he is better than anyone else at adapting his driving style to suit whatever the car demands. He isn't out and out the fastest racing driver I feel, especially when other racing drivers get the car setup just to their liking. But Alonso is universally very fast over such a wide range of car behaviours whereas Massa, Button, Vettel, Raikkonen, Webber and many others are only super fast in cars that suit their driving style.

I think if next year comes down to it, and it is a matter of who can adapt driving styles the best, then I personally see Alonso or Hamilton rising to the top and the likes of Vettel and others slipping down the order. If Vettel has one weakness, I feel it is his adaptability and his need to have a car allowing him to drive a certain way, he is super strong everywhere else.

Is that why Alonso was outqualified 6 to 7 times in 2nd half of the season?? because he's super adatable?? And lewis?? Guy has been a non factor in 2nd half of the season. hahahahahah

So much for fans stereotype.

I will treat you with a thoughtful response when you form even a semi coherent reasoned response.

[Kansas]

stats is all there. just look it up LOL

[SectorOne]

Oh the cherry picked stats you mean, sorry i completely forgot that is the way trolls make cases these days.

[JimClarkFan]

Oh the cherry picked stats you mean, sorry i completely forgot that is the way trolls make cases these days.

Exactly mate.

[mnmracer]

Oh the cherry picked stats you mean, sorry i completely forgot that is the way trolls make cases these days.

Incoherent answers or not, surely it must not come as a surprise to you that double standards are not met with universal agreement. It's no different than cherry picking stats to claim Vettel loses his edge when {insert very specific event X} happens. Alonso being outqualified more often in 2013, is no different than Vettel being outqualified more often in 2012: it's a single anomaly from a very clear trend: that both have been comfortably outperformed their team-mates in any situation over the last couple years.

We've had Michelin and Pirelli, we've had fueling and not-refueling, we've had F-Ducts, KERS, DRS in races, DRS everywhere in qualifying, DRS not everywhere in qualifying, durable tires, flimsy tires, blown diffusers. And of course, if you cherry pick a single weekend you could claim that Vettel isn't adaptable because there was this one instance were something happened, or that Alonso can't handle himself when one other instance happens, but both are just idiotic. If you look at the performance trend over both their last stints, it shows that whatever regulation there is, they hold a sizable performance advantage over their team-mates. Claiming anything else would be the very definition of cherry picking.

[Racer X]

We still have to see but my opinion is a guy like Button will have a hard time so I think Magnusen will beat him. New car new driver I think he can quicker adapt and over all I think anyone who prefers under steer might have a harder time. Seems over steer will be slightly benefitted but I think we still have to see.
Technical drivers like HULK are ones I want to look at. I want to see how The top drivers compare I think Ferrari is a good team to look at Alonso and Kimi same machinery both amazing and both very clean technical.

RedBull is one sided
Lotus Romain should win
I'm not saying I think romain should win because of the regs I'm just saying better comparisons can be maid between a driver like Alonso and Kimi then drivers in lesser teams or even top teams where one is clearly better.

That's said Mercedez is another great two drivers to see how the regs affected relative to each other..

[Lycoming]

This tells me that Vettel performs optimally with a car which allows him to drive in a certain way.

What a deep and profound insight.

We still have to see but my opinion is a guy like Button will have a hard time so I think Magnusen will beat him. New car new driver I think he can quicker adapt and over all I think anyone who prefers under steer might have a harder time. Seems over steer will be slightly benefitted but I think we still have to see.

Do you mean that the car will tend to oversteer more? If, on the technical side, they can put together a powertrain that delivers reasonably smooth torque delivery (ie. can be easily modulated) with good throttle response, I see no reason for the new cars to be more oversteer-y. More likely the opposite, since they will have less power.

And if they can't do that, the problem isn't really about balance.

[raymondu999]

I think there's two ways to cut that cake. If we assume that next year there will be more torque powersliding/oversteer - then it can play out one of two ways.

A) More aggressive drivers who can better handle oversteer will prevail because the tail is sliding all the time
OR
B) The less aggressive drivers with lighter right feet will induce less torque oversteer in the first place, and hence the smoother drivers will prevail.

Remember that said torque oversteer - if real - is a failure mode, not a natural consequence of the car's handling.

[SectorOne]

Could someone explain what torque oversteer is and how that is different from normal oversteer.
Seems to me people mix the word torque steer with oversteer.

[CBeck113]

Torque steer is when the torquee through the drive shafts to the wheels influences the direction of the car - very easliy experienced on high powered fwd cars from the late 80s/early 90s, before traction control systems led to "improved" steering geometries (i.e. made it possible to implement geometries that would not be easily controllable for humans, but the CPUs can do it without a problem).

On a RWD car it is the variation in direction due to the influence of the final drive on the power distribution to the rear wheels (uneven traction in the tires).
Over/under steer is a description of the balance of a car in a turn; if the rear end breaks out (without any change to the power to the rear wheels) then the car has oversteering, if the front end doesn't want to follow the curve but tries to drive straight, then it's understeering.

If your RWD car has lots of power it will naturally tend to "oversteer", since it is constantly exceeding the capabilities of the rear tires, and the tail will break out - but this is in my opinion/definition torque steering.

Any other opinions / definitions?

[raymondu999]

Could someone explain what torque oversteer is and how that is different from normal oversteer.
Seems to me people mix the word torque steer with oversteer.

it's basically pushing the throttle pedal over the grip limit, while your front wheels aren't dead straight yet. (If they were dead straight you'd get wheelspin)

[SectorOne]

it's basically pushing the throttle pedal over the grip limit, while your front wheels aren't dead straight yet. (If they were dead straight you'd get wheelspin)

That´s regular power oversteer you are describing.
Which is one of the ways you create oversteer in a car.
Another would be lift off oversteer, assuming the setup is set up for that, you can for example have a car that just pushes forward with no throttle and damn near impossible to get off-throttle oversteer in unless you do like an "moose-maneuver".

if the rear end breaks out (without any change to the power to the rear wheels) then the car has oversteering,

It´s still oversteering if you are on the power. (i.e. power oversteer)
Over steer meaning steering more then what is needed to make the corner because you have to catch the rear.

It seems to me the word torque oversteer is merely a different word for power oversteer.
A word i´ve never come across anywhere except here.

[tim|away]

Could someone explain what torque oversteer is and how that is different from normal oversteer.
Seems to me people mix the word torque steer with oversteer.

There is no such thing as "torque oversteering". There is oversteering and torque steering. Torque steering describes the forces of the engine on the steering, potentially resulting in the car pulling to one side (especially in fwd cars).