Politics Thread

Post anything that doesn't belong in any other forum, including gaming and topics unrelated to motorsport. Site specific discussions should go in the site feedback forum.
miqi23
miqi23
7
Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

Post

I'm sorry, but how many Iraqi men, women, and children have you seen fawning over the US serviceman that liberated them from the horrible things Saddam did
How sweet mate, I dont know how to put this politely but I can try. Basically every one is responsible for clearing their own shite alright and this is what you lot did.

As I said before, you create a crisis and you offer a solution. End of story and it doesnt take a lot to understand how this works.

User avatar
Ray
2
Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Post

So he's not responsible for what he did, just that we supplied him with the means to do so? I am well aware we were the ones that put him in power. But that doesn't let him off the hook.

I know it's wrong, and we've caused alot of problems. But people in that region have been killing each other for thousands of years before the Us was around. So I don't buy that we caused a civil war.

miqi23
miqi23
7
Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

Post

Indeed he is responsible for what he did and he got what he deserved. However, it would have never happened if you lot had not put him there in the first place.

I am not sure if people were fighting there for thousands of year, could possibly be yes, well they still do in different places dont they? It doesnt mean you have to be there and not mind your own business.

I am surprised why dont you go and invade Africa or something where loads of tribes fight amongst them selves and thousands of innocent people get butchered for no apparent reason. Perhaps your policy is only for oil rich countries right?

Movie Blood Diamond reminds of Sierra Leone where all the diamonds are and look whos there again!

User avatar
Ray
2
Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Post

Yet again, prove to me we took their oil fields by force and have taken over the production for ourselves. You, among others have said this about Iraq and have not produced anything other than snide remarks, innuendo, and false statements. Show me one example, and you'll get my humble apology.


I never said we were the greatest nation, and if you take the time to read anything I've said here and in other threads, you'll see that. Not to mention that I've REPEATEDLY said that we should mind our own business. I did in fact say that we did put him in power, yet you still throw it in my face like I haven't thought about, said, or realized that fact. Take the time to search the forum, and quit attacking me, and insinuating the things you are saying to me. Which is that we should be the world police, we should have our noses in everything, and we should take other countries resources by force. Stop putting words in my mouth and look up what I have in the past. Otherwise I will ignore your lack of research, understanding, lack of understanding, accusations, and basic grasp of the the above.

User avatar
Ray
2
Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Post

Oh yeah. And we aren't the only ones mucking in the middle east. I don't like pissing contests, or pointing fingers. But if you are going to attack me and my country for 'causing' problems all over the world, I will give you some examples that we aren't the only bad guy in the world. So get off your high horse, soap box, or whatever. You seem like you think we are the only ones to ever do anything in the Middle East that is bad. And yes, the people in the Middle East have been killing each other over religion for thousands of years. Pick up a history book and read please.

http://www.allianceforsecurity.org/iraq-occupation
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/is ... hindex.htm
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3 ... story.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/recent/ira ... q_03.shtml

miqi23
miqi23
7
Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

Post

Ray, I am not throwing words in your mouth nor accusing you of anything. I just presented the facts and thats about it. I am glad you realise it.

Anyhow, regarding oil fields. Dont you think things would be that straight forward and US would declare them as the right owner of every well there? No, it doesnt work that way, however I do no companies like BP and Exxon were in talks to get their plants sorted somewhere in future and CLAIM monopoly.

User avatar
Ray
2
Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

Post

If you pay attention to the news, they have done exactly that. We are helping them get their oil field repaired, after the insurgents (I hate that term) sabotaged them. They have declared they are going to help fix them to reinvigorate the Iraq economy by fixing the oil fields.

And still, you don't provide irrefutable evidence that we are controlling their oil fields, nor that we went in to steal it from them. Why is it that you don't provide this? I would greatly appreciate if someone who has said this would back it up with FACT and not some bogus report, or an unfounded opinion.

miqi23
miqi23
7
Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

Post

Firstly, I never said that we are soo much better or anything like that. Basically we are as bad at times as it gets.

Remember we have ruled around and have caused serious problems before leaving. Thats tactics and crafting our way for our safe future and screwing others. How selfish dont you think. We are the one who recognised Israel and look whats happening there now.

Mate, dont tell me what the news tells you. If you believe what ever they tell you than you need to think again. BBC reported building 7 of the WTC complex also called the Solmon Brothers building to have collapsed 27 minutes before it actually collapsed. Once again, 27 minutes before its actual collapse. The reporter is reporting its collapse while its standing behind her.

Some one knew what was going to happen and now the BBC is saying they have lost their tapes. BullSh*t. Happy, our cockups!

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Post

May I post something I read today? (James Joyce, "The Dead", in "Dubliners"):
"A new generation is growing up in our midst, a generation actuated by new ideas and new principles. It is serious and enthusiastic for these new ideas and its enthusiasm, even when it is misdirected, is, I believe, in the main sincere."

"But we are living in a sceptical and, if I may use the phrase, a thought-tormented age: and sometimes I fear that this new generation, educated or hypereducated as it is, will lack those qualities of humanity, of hospitality, of kindly humour which belonged to an older day. Listening tonight to the names of all those great singers of the past it seemed to me, I must confess, that we were living in a less spacious age. Those days might, without exaggeration, be called spacious days: and if they are gone beyond recall let us hope, at least, that in gatherings such as this we shall still speak of them with pride and affection, still cherish in our hearts the memory of those dead and gone great ones whose fame the world will not willingly let die."

"Hear, hear!" said Mr. Browne loudly.

"But yet," continued Gabriel, his voice falling into a softer inflection, "there are always in gatherings such as this sadder thoughts that will recur to our minds: thoughts of the past, of youth, of changes, of absent faces that we miss here tonight. Our path through life is strewn with many such sad memories: and were we to brood upon them always we could not find the heart to go on bravely with our work among the living. We have all of us living duties and living affections which claim, and rightly claim, our strenuous endeavours."

"Therefore, I will not linger on the past. I will not let any gloomy moralising intrude upon us here tonight. Here we are gathered together for a brief moment from the bustle and rush of our everyday routine. We are met here as friends, in the spirit of good-fellowship, as colleagues, also to a certain extent, in the true spirit of camaraderie, and as the guests of--what shall I call them? --the Three Graces of the Dublin musical world."
I swear I thought about you, guys, reading this today on my shiny Transmilenio bus... :wink: I even imagined Principessa, our host, as one of the Three Graces for a moment.

I bet you can use a little of old James's words (hey, not the part about the "spacious days", this epoch is as mine as yours, I'm not that old to become nostalgic about the "good old days"! :))

If somebody wants to read "The Dead", you can find it at http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext01/dblnr11h.htm. It's the last tale and it's short and moving.

About USA budget, no matter what percentages Giancarlo throws around, the military budget of USA is a monstrosity without any rational justification.

I'm finding f1.redbaron style more comfortable: look around and trust other people judgement, I know him a little and I'm sure he and I have no interest in proselitizing anyone here.

I can give links on technical threads, being sure they are useful, not as a "proof that I'm right", but to facilitate learning. f1.redbaron doesn't use links as weapons in an argument! He uses them to illustrate, to teach, to guide, to make succint comments. Here, I don't know.

Anyway, following redbaron lead, I believe this military budget is as much as the next 10 countries together. I wonder if Americans (and specially republicans) normally penny-wise are becoming fools. I trust them also, so I know they will do something, some day, about it.

Unfortunately, Giancarlo is right about something: the so called "liberals", named like that in a pejorative way, are out of focus. FYI, liberal means "for freedom". This is clear in spanish, not in english.

Anyway, liberals, instead of worrying on increasing the social spending, for me the only spending by the Government that has any justification, they are worried about the rights of lesbians and focusing on abortion (I'm not implying gays have no rights, nor arguing for pro-life or pro-choice, just wondering when another Martin Luther King, not for the blacks, but for the poors and the squeezed middle class, will be born). When will someone propose full coverage for all diseases for anyone? Isn't that worthy of some fight, even if only with arguments? I'm sure anyone, rich and poor, would pay more taxes for THAT.

I lived in Maryland for a couple of years and I wondered how people so rich could live in such appalling environment. Rich people hardened by fear of their fellow citizens, poor people full of anger. Not even here, where conditions are so hard we live like that. Our rich, no matter how ignorant, no matter how cruel, never ever blame the poverty of the poor on anyone but themselves. Must be the Catholic abhorrence of money (remember the camel and the needle?).

I clearly remember once when I was called a "sucker" by a mexican-american friend because I gave a quarter (25 cents) to an old homeless lady (they are not called poor, but homeless, notice the subtle way to blame them about their own poverty). She said that I was encouraging beggars to exist! The woman was like 65... I can understand not giving money to young people, but to an old woman? Meanwhile, my friend was sipping a horrible beverage called a frapuccino or something like that, that costs perhaps a dollar a pound (of coffee). She had paid 5 dollars for that horrible excuse for coffe and was saying I was an imbecile because I gave money to someone clearly in need... sigh. What do you think, Giancarlo? It's better to give money to churchs so rich that have magnificent temples and pastors that live in 500 thousand dollars houses? What did Christ, Buddha and Mohamed say about charity? Did they put strict limits on it? What's the percentage of your soul that is devoted to make of this a better world? Is 59% too much?

We're sooo smart thechnically, but even humble ants don't allow anyone of them to die of hunger. Are we really unable of securing life for everyone from crib to tomb? Is this despicable? I'm sure some day this will become a rule of living: don't worry about how to live, better worry about the meaning of your life, mankind is wise enough to produce its basic needs. From that day on, capitalism will be justified and the rich will be able to sleep in peace.

Meanwhile, Hillary, Obama and Gore worry about stem-research (not that it's not worthy of some thought) and most of the population (seen from here, where we are really poor) work their collective *sses earning effectively less and less. The poor excuse they have for taxes, the american social security, is a joke: when I lived there I had to save money to fix a cavity! C'mon, not even the colombians are so poor. We are smarter than that. No wonder the laborists there have no chance: the middle class gives their vote willfully to representatives of the rich people! I wonder when a laborist party will find a constituency there.

Another random comment: I think that all the efforts Ray did, all the bravery and all the fear he had to swallow while doing things most of us are unable to do, can be blamed on failures of the Department of State, not on lack of armor for Humvees.

I'm taking my hat off to Ray and his comrades, even if I come from a family of warriors, even if my family (from my subjective point of view) fought for very different principles (and lost): justice, poor people, socialism, less for the powerful people and more for the "individuals" Giancarlo seems so worried about. Hey Ray, you weren't defending your money: you were spending the health, the insurance you need in times of sickness, your pension, there in Iraq, not throwing a dictator. The world is full of dictators, they won't fall with bullets. They thrive on bullets, precisely. If you can't see that, then you will blame the "Iraqui civil war" on lack of F-16, not on lack of justice, education, health, a house, water, electricity and freedom. You really needed a General like Marshall, the guy of the Marshall plan, not like Schwarzkopf, let me tell you. Where are the american Roosevelts today? Have all became Rumsfelds? A General must have, not only a battle plan, but a noble mind, like yours, Ray. All soldiers know that from the bottom of their heart.

If 1% pays 40% of the taxes is because they make most of the money. I wonder when a politician is going to worry about the intolerable financial duress most americans endure: most of them are in heavy debt, pushed by ads and propaganda, spending the few dollars they have left (if indirectly) on bullets and bank interest. Not even Louis XIV had the same kind of services an american billionaire has and not even him had under his thumb, so subjugated, so many people.

Oh, man, I like this thread. I only hope Tomba never reads it, or I'm afraid he is going to stop it. I'm saying things I don't dare to say in Colombia because I wouldn't last 10 minutes alive. Here, in Bogotá, I'm limited to act. Freedom of speech and Internet are a marriage made in heaven. If only some of you could smile more frequently, and, as Dave put it, "don't blow a gasket over it", this would be even more productive than what it already has been. Come on, miqi, you're one of the cool guys here: relax a little, make a couple of jokes, you're not alone! Neither you, Ray, we understand the efforts you made and they could be comendable, if focused on the good. Hats off to Manchild, also, that took so much time to illustrate us on the Yugoslavian and Israeli history fine points, that explains so much of the Palestinian conflict, if not all, I'm afraid.

Hey, sincerely, thanks you all, specially those that have the courage and time to read all my incoherences (macdenife comes to my mind).
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 02 Mar 2007, 06:22, edited 1 time in total.
Ciro

miqi23
miqi23
7
Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

Post

Ciro, I dont know what you mean by I am not alone!

Well, I am chilled out now, its just some people dont make an effort to find out simple things them selves and throw out questions with out even thinking. To be honest I dont want to waste more time arguing about Politics or oil or what ever, the facts are out there and some very good links in this thread. Too sad some one did not bother looking into it.

Indeed hats off to some very clever and dignified people here who present their ideas in an acceptable way and its sad some people just dont get it.

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Post

I meant some people here thinks like you. Maybe you saw "Matilda", the movie? The little girl, surrounded by her impossible parents went to the library and returned with a load of books. I'm paraphrasing Roald Dahl, the writer, from memory: "She was comforted because she felt she wasn't alone. She had all these authors, that threw their magnificent books to the world, like ships sailing in the ocean, supporting her".
Ciro

Giancarlo
Giancarlo
0
Joined: 03 Oct 2006, 02:50

Post

bhallg2k wrote:Medicare is cheaper and more efficiently run than private insurance companies. Look it up.
Medicare historically has been very shaky. Depending who you ask; the Medicare trust fund may dry up in 4 yrs or 28 years. If you look at the market history of Medicare, you'll see many people running to the hills in the late 90's. When 'W' was speaking about privatizing Medicare (B/C it makes sense!), investors flocked back. Now the Democrats oppose the 'free-market' approach put forth by W and Medicare is resting on unstable ground. Meanwhile, ins. such as Blue Cross have been cash-cows since the whole HMO craze imploded after Uncle Sam stuck its nose in it.

Private health care providers are profitable/Medicare has a shelf-life of 4-28 yrs unless its privatized. Another subsidized Gov. screw-up.

Cutting our defense spending by 50% isn't going to be enough to save entitlements for the future. They're simply not earning enough interest and there are too many hands being stretched out asking for free $$$.

Hospital bills are expensive b/c many people do not pay. A simple visit to the doctor isn't what it used to be b/c of trial lawyers, John Edwards comes to mind, and make malpractice ins. unbearable for some.

Here's a true story:
I have an SCCA bud who has a general practice and also works in emergency medicine. A few years ago, while working in the ER, he saw a patient that injured her foot. He asked her the usual Q's: are you on any meds, are you allergic to___, are you pregnant, do you have a history of___, etc. The answers were all no-no-no. A few x-rays later he determined that she broke her foot. She was in pain, and he prescribed her pain medication at her request. He fitted a cast and all was done.

Fast forward one year: he was being sued for malpractice. She had a child and the child was born with Down Syndrome. According to her, the pain meds he prescribed caused her child to be born with an extra chromosome. His response "How the f**k was I supposed to know she was pregnant? Why would anyone do a pregnancy test on a teenage woman who broke her foot?"

And here lies the problem: people think they deserve money when they really don't and ruin lives and business for their own gain. While it is sad that that woman had a DS child, is it really my friend's fault? Did she ever drink, do drugs, or eat right during the pregnancy? Of course not! If she did, how could she litigate!

My friend is one of the best people I've ever met. I may or may not end up in hell, but that guy is definitely a saint. As of now, he's at risk of losing his practice which puts food on his table, pays for his home, and sends his children to school. He didn't go to medical school to have his life ruined by a lawyer, he wanted to help & make a difference.

Now there are doctors that deserve the punitive judgments they receive;but others were just doing their job. If there's a need for any health care reform - its to protect doctors from greedy patients and their equally foul lawyers.

If someone doesn't have health insurance and they get sick or break a bone - they go to the doctor anyway, get their care, and never pay. So what's the point of taking $ out of everyone's paycheck for socialist health care? If the person has no job, is poor, etc. they don't pay anyway. Many hospitals have foundations just for these purposes and whatever the foundations cannot cover - the expenses are passed down to other patients. There is a solution to aide those w/o health care, charity and higher prices for people that can pay. But the government wants to stick its nose and further hinder our lives...Hillary Care '08 (yup, she's a lawyer)

People cannot be refused treatment b/c they don't have insurance. That law is set in stone.

In the meantime, Americans should have the ability to choose their health-plan if they pay for it. I've paid for heathcare before I was let go - I didn't mind and the health care packages offered by prospective employers was a large part of my decision in choosing who I was to work for. Heathcare is part of the job market, employees demand it and that's why just about every employer has it available in some form. But like most things, people have a right to not choose it. Anyone that thinks that 'health insurance is a right' should be slapped in the face. If you want something, pay for it - is that too hard to grasp? Many people think those on welfare don't have insurance, well they don't - they just have the government pay that bill just like the grocery bill. So might look at the stats on who has and who doesn't have insurance and be shocked. What's more shocking is that everyone is pretty much taken care of for the most part. People with low-mid income jobs are all offered insurance, the elderly are taken care of with SS & medicare (for now), those on welfare are taken care of, and bums that have overdosed on heroin are treated and the costs are passed on or taken care of by a foundation. So where's the demand?

There isn't a need for government control of medical insurance. Hillary just has a need for more power and a government that is larger than it already is and a government that intrudes our lives more than it already does.

If you'd like other examples on how lower income families can have the gov. pick up the medical bill - ask me about a co-worker of mine now (----college-job) that had a child, with some complications, and Uncle Sam picked up the $25,000 medical bill. We're already paying for that, but the government wants more!!!
bhallg2k wrote:I have no love for recent revisionist history. Why is it such a problem now that commanders on the ground are seemingly being ignored? It didn't seem to matter when the GOP was in charge of it all. Generals asked for more troops, more armor and better treatment of returning vets. The GOP-led Congress and W denied them ON EVERY OCCASION. Look it up.
After searching lexis-nexis, google, EBSCO, and anything else I could think of; I could not find a time-line consisting of the military asking for something and Uncle Sam saying no.

But here's some good reading and its along the lines of what you are thinking (I think): http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,126712,00.html

Yes, it's an op-ed; but its focused on how some military leaders have their hands tied while elected officials are more worried about their careers and maintain the status quo. If you re-read this thread, you'll notice my consistency in which lawyers and politicians should stay out of military management. But if you fail to see it, or prefer to call me names while taking every available opportunity to bash Bush - fine. I'd like to keep slander & opinion to a minimum and resources at a maximum on this thread. If you only offer ad hominem attacks and your opinion, keep it private. If you'd like to contribute more than ramblings, please post where others can decide if what you say is fact or fiction. Your word isn't good enough for me.
SIU Formula SAE

nae
nae
0
Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 00:56

Post

Ray wrote:You ever been in any branch of any military nae?
yes

not that it matters one iota

i even enjoyed a large part of it, didn't do much as it was in that quiet period of UK foreign policy at the end of the 80's


i was going to engage in this thread but i cant really see the point in dissecting others posts line by line. tho ill quickly have a punt

The USA only has it self to blame for its troubles and has spent vast amounts of time and money making it that way

It is true that nobody said pre iraq that 'we is going in for the oil' but since the very first day that the ports opened oil has flowed out the country. and no it wouldn't effect your pump prices as its not like there is an endless supply of the stuff and they do after all have to finance the war. none the less oil flows out and i am sure that everybody was aware of that particular spoil of war. odd how the oil pipe lines where operational before water supplies where restored isn't it.

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Post

I've gone to the trouble of carefully reading every word of every post by everyone who has contributed to the political debate. Naturally, some thoughts I accept, and some propositions I reject, no one agrees on everything with everyone else. But I respect every person. Yes Giancarlo, I do not mutter foul obsceneties or curse your heritage. In fact, I respect you for the sincere effort for proposing your viewpoints. You have carefully thought out many aspects, and are sincere in your beliefs. The fact I may not accept them is incidental.
But politics isn't about hard facts, I haven't see any leaders or elected officials who received their positions by a written aptitude test. Most of the time, it's all about the perceptions and attitudes of those involved. History, actions, and comments are facts, they cannot be argued. But it's what people believe at the time that matters.
Earlier today I overheard a conversation and one person stated something interesting, that whatever mankind constructs, eventually breaks. Be it machinery, or social or political conditions, eventually it breaks. Here in Canada, most of us recognize that our system is not perfect or the ultimate expression of government. We have a very long passage before Utopia is realized. If we ever arrive before self-destruction. All we can do is struggle on, fighting for survival, and hopefully, when we pass the torch, leave the world a better place because of our quick moment in existence.
As I speak, somewhere, every SIX SECONDS, a child dies of neglect or starvation. Wars and conflict abound, sadly mankind is still wrapped in the chaos of conflict and violence.
But there's one thing we should all try to remember, all the time. We are all stuck together on this little ball of dirt together, sharing this planet, never in isolation from our neighbours. For that, we need to continually strive to learn, somehow, to live together.

mcdenife
mcdenife
1
Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

Post

Ciro wrote:
Hey, sincerely, thanks you all, specially those that have the courage and time to read all my incoherences (macdenife comes to my mind).
No. Thank you for the courage/wisdom to express and articulate that inspired post.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.