"Running out of fuel"

[hollus]

I hope this is the correct subforum for this. Please move it otherwise.

I was wondering what "running out of fuel" will look like this year. I fear it won't be pretty. Have we seen the actual technical and sporting rues applying to this? Any "directives" added to them?

AFAIK, there are two ways of running out of fuel in the race for 2014. One is that the Gill sensor will count more than 100Kg from lights to flag. What exactly happens then? I assume it won't cut ignition or anything like that, will a red light shine in the cockpit? I know the driver and the team get readings from this sensor live, but chances are that they'll try to cut it very thin in some cases, and even an idling engine consumes some fuel, it is just a matter of time before someone uses 100.03Kg of fuel. The car will roll normally through the finish line and to the pits. If that car simply disqualified after the race? Is there a tolerance built in for errors in the sensor so that the actual limit is 100.5Kg or something like that? Not that it would change the potential problem...

The second one would be failing to deliver the 1 liter sample after the race. Now it is no longer acceptable to stop just on the grounds that "otherwise I wouldn't have the liter left in the tank", or am I wrong and this applies only for quali? In that case, the car that got it slightly wrong would cross the finish line normally, pit normally about 3 minutes later, and eventually fail to produce that liter and be disqualified, what, 10 minutes after the race end? 30 minutes later?

I hope I am missing something here, because otherwise I fear hat results won't be final until after the post race interviews, and that can't be good.

P.S. cynic note: Are there any news on the actual performance of the Gill sensors? On how they'll be allocated to the different cars? I can't wait for the first car to be disqualified on that 1 liter rule, or to actually run dry in the race, only for the team to go public and say, "well, we did put 107Kg of fuel in the car. We weighed it. So it is the sensor's fault".

[xxChrisxx]

I fail to see how this is any different to now. If people cut it too fine and go over, tough.

Its simply the limit that has changed, and its now a firm number. Plus you have the fuel flow cap to help.

If anything it'll be easier to know how much fuel they have used and have left. Further to this everyone is going to be sticking in pretty much 100 + 1 + safety. Simply because there is no reason not to.

[Shrieker]

I think what hollus says is, you could stop after crossing the line in race up until this season. Now, you have to return to the pits and provide the 1 liter sample. Things can get messy with result changes after everything's done and dusted if someone either has to stop in order to provide the 1 liter sample or limp back to the pits but can't provide it.

[xxChrisxx]

The solution is amazingly simple. Put enough fuel in.

The stringency may have increased, but the principle is the same. If you gamble on less fuel to gain a marginal bit of speed and don't have enough to finish with the required amount. Its tough ---, you get disqualified.

[enri_the_red]

P.S. cynic note: Are there any news on the actual performance of the Gill sensors? On how they'll be allocated to the different cars? I can't wait for the first car to be disqualified on that 1 liter rule, or to actually run dry in the race, only for the team to go public and say, "well, we did put 107Kg of fuel in the car. We weighed it. So it is the sensor's fault".

these are the homologation requirements for the fuel flow meter
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... eter_0.pdf

[rjsa]

The solution is amazingly simple. Put enough fuel in.

The stringency may have increased, but the principle is the same. If you gamble on less fuel to gain a marginal bit of speed and don't have enough to finish with the required amount. Its tough ---, you get disqualified.

This ^^^

[Jersey Tom]

If NASCAR engineers can handle fuel load / limits / strategy with no live sensors or gauges.. pretty sure F1 crews should be able to figure it out with all the live data acquisition under the sun.

If you want to gamble and run too close to the limit.. well, that's your call - tough break.

[tim|away]

The 100kg limit is applied to the length of the race - excluding warm-up lap and inlap after crossing the finish line. Accounting for those two extra laps and the additional 1 litre sample, the cars will have more than 100 kg of fuel onboard. The actual consumption between the start of the race and crossing the finish line is being calculated electronically.

In theory, we could see a situation in which cars have used more than 100 kg of fuel before crossing the finish line and yet they'd still be going physically. The obvious consequence would be a DQ after the race.

[xxChrisxx]

Not to labour the point, but again thats no different than completely running out of fuel.

You know your historical consumption each lap, you know exactly how much you have in the tank so you know how much you have to get to the end.

So there really should be no excuse for using more than the alotted fuel. Its again the gamble of deliberately running it too close to the wire.

[RZS10]

I wonder if the cars have the ability to go on ERS only - say you end up using 100kg of fuel with only a few corners to go, would you be able to just use those 160BHP for those 33 seconds having a full battery in order to save some points?

[FW17]

In theory, we could see a situation in which cars have used more than 100 kg of fuel before crossing the finish line and yet they'd still be going physically. The obvious consequence would be a DQ after the race.

I understand that the Gill sensor is not a auto cut off so if a car consumes more than 100 kgs for the race distance then the car should be disqualified by the FIA. But question is what will be the limit of the allowance as all devices will have a tolerance limit to it. In case it is 1% does it mean that all cars can use 101 kgs or 100 kgs to be classified for a result?

[atanatizante]

It`s interesting to know also the time management over a lap scenarios in both cases 2013 and 2014 :
a) Last year they usually have had some 160kg of fuel on board.
At this we can add the car 641kg without driver and we have almost 800kg minimum allowed.
Now considering the above mentioned, at almost all circuits they all agreed that time will increase with 3 tenths for every 10kg of fuel.
b) This year we have a max.100kg fuel rule and a 691kg car without driver so ruffly 791 kg and that it`s only a 1,2% decrease in weight.
So even if it`s the same 3 tenths rule applicable this year, with 3 more kg on board that means only a tenth per lap and ... wow that`s almost 5 sec. over a 50 laps race ... but I think this year will be less to lose over a lap coz now they have 5 times more time with ERS at their disposal and least but not last a 35% less thirsty turbo engine.
Please correct me if I`m wrong or do other assumptions regarding this matter ...

[turbof1]

The biggest issue is getting it right. Teams will need to have around 103-105kg fuel aboard to get through everything. The fuel needed for outside the race can't be stored seperately. Naturally you'll want to be as close as you can to having used 100kg of fuel when you cross the finish line. So actually both 99,5 and 105,5kg used is undesirable. Teams will probably use some margin though, especially this season.

It'll probably end up in a DQ when going above the limit, though when faced with the choice of parking the car and being DQ'd teams will perhaps try to finish anyway and afterwards invoke for whatever reason force majeure.

I'm curious how the FIA would handle cases where a car gets damaged and due to this has increased and increased fuel consumption.

The rules are way too strict. Add a time penalty, like 5 seconds for each additional fuel consumption between 0.1 and 0.5 above the 100kg. So someone who burned 100.6kg gets 10 seconds.

[langwadt]

The biggest issue is getting it right. Teams will need to have around 103-105kg fuel aboard to get through everything. The fuel needed for outside the race can't be stored seperately. Naturally you'll want to be as close as you can to having used 100kg of fuel when you cross the finish line. So actually both 99,5 and 105,5kg used is undesirable. Teams will probably use some margin though, especially this season.

It'll probably end up in a DQ when going above the limit, though when faced with the choice of parking the car and being DQ'd teams will perhaps try to finish anyway and afterwards invoke for whatever reason force majeure.

I'm curious how the FIA would handle cases where a car gets damaged and due to this has increased and increased fuel consumption.

The rules are way too strict. Add a time penalty, like 5 seconds for each additional fuel consumption between 0.1 and 0.5 above the 100kg. So someone who burned 100.6kg gets 10 seconds.

I don't see why it is any more or less difficult than it has always been

least year they had to use less than what was put in the tank or physically run out of fuel

this year they have to use less than 100kg or virtually run out of fuel

[Del Boy]

As much as I hate what if questions but...

Due to reliability issues this year and points down to tenth, a car on its last lap is running 10th and the last car running. Half way through the last lap the fuel used during the race equals 100 litres. Do you stop the car and still get tenth or use more than 100 litres and be disqualified?