Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2014

[FW17]

Renault did not have to complicate their problems with Red Bull's or others, they could have independently verified if the package is working to the corresponding dyno package, something which could have been done a long time back on a test mule. The turbo IC could have been tested first and then ERS K and ERS H could have been added in stages.

[aleks_ader]

Renault did not have to complicate their problems with Red Bull's or others, they could have independently verified if the package is working to the corresponding dyno package, something which could have been done a long time back on a test mule. The turbo IC could have been tested first and then ERS K and ERS H could have been added in stages.

I sure that how they did. But unfortunately you cannot test exact real integration on dyno or even in the mule... They just gamble and it for now dint quite work out. But that it isnt reason to write off RB or TR and Lotus. On Caterham package work very well (not the speed, but millage wise), but why is that? Answers are sometimes very simple and we don't need to be complicated.

[Alexgtt]

IMO a test mule for new engines is essential. I'm convinced both Ferrari (as we no doubt saw on that well debated video) and Merc did. I'd be amazed to learn Renault didn't in some shape or form but it's starting to look that way. You can replicate most things on they sophisticated dynos they have but not everything. There's nothing like putting and engine through it's paces in a real environment. Even if it's not exactly the same as the final installation, you have data on what's happening.

If they really didn't run in a test mule I'm surprised RB hadn't influenced/pushed for it, especially knowing Newey likes to package things a certain way.

Honda will have test mules asap, no doubt.

[basti313]

Renault did not have to complicate their problems with Red Bull's or others, they could have independently verified if the package is working to the corresponding dyno package, something which could have been done a long time back on a test mule. The turbo IC could have been tested first and then ERS K and ERS H could have been added in stages.

I think that is the problem: The turbo IC was constructed with the ERS to control the turbo. Maybe they had the wastegate solution on the dyno, then they added the MGU H and removed the wastegate control of the turbo...it worked on the dyno...but not in reality where MGU H dumped more energy than expected. At the moment they are combining the wastegate control with MGU H...
Additionally the batteries failed under vibrations and the MGU K blows the gearbox...
That shows me they never had a test mule. On a test mule they would have seen at last the problems with the batteries and the gearbox.

[FW17]

They would have been in a lot better place had they wiped out the old escape

[myurr]

Renault did not have to complicate their problems with Red Bull's or others, they could have independently verified if the package is working to the corresponding dyno package, something which could have been done a long time back on a test mule. The turbo IC could have been tested first and then ERS K and ERS H could have been added in stages.

I think that is the problem: The turbo IC was constructed with the ERS to control the turbo. Maybe they had the wastegate solution on the dyno, then they added the MGU H and removed the wastegate control of the turbo...it worked on the dyno...but not in reality where MGU H dumped more energy than expected. At the moment they are combining the wastegate control with MGU H...
Additionally the batteries failed under vibrations and the MGU K blows the gearbox...
That shows me they never had a test mule. On a test mule they would have seen at last the problems with the batteries and the gearbox.

Whilst test mules are a great way of proving that the fundamentals are correct they don't recreate the brutal conditions inside an F1 car.

Red Bull build the gearbox so it possibly wasn't tested with that, especially if like the rest of the car it wasn't ready. They were the only team not to incorporate the F1 chassis into their dyno testing as Red Bull didn't have it ready in time. Merc and Ferrari both did this to verify the cooling package as a whole. The first time the whole RBR car and Renault engine were brought together and fired up was on the first day of testing. We know other teams went through that two or three weeks earlier and I have no doubt the works Mercedes team would have been earlier still.

Basically Renault's problems probably come down to budget and poor planning - they had roughly half as many staff working on the engine as Mercedes. They were up against it to deliver and haven't done enough testing.

This has been massively compounded by RBR's complete mismanagement of the process. Horner blames Flavio for the problems but reality is that RBR should have been helping Renault two years ago not only just starting when they get to Jerez and realise how deep the sh*t they're standing in actually is. They also threw all their resources into the second half of the year believing that their brilliance would let them pull this years car together in a few months where others have been working on it for years.

[basti313]

Whilst test mules are a great way of proving that the fundamentals are correct they don't recreate the brutal conditions inside an F1 car.

I am not sure about that. The Ferrari people are not stupid, they did not build the test mule just for fun. Especially regarding vibrations you can easily sort out vibration problems like batteries failing in installation laps and I think cooling is even worse in a test mule.

Red Bull build the gearbox so it possibly wasn't tested with that, especially if like the rest of the car it wasn't ready. They were the only team not to incorporate the F1 chassis into their dyno testing as Red Bull didn't have it ready in time. Merc and Ferrari both did this to verify the cooling package as a whole.

You are absolutely right about that. When I heard that Mercedes had their whole chassis on the dyno for weaks when RedBull did not even have a chassis, I was already concerned about the time plan of RedBull.

Basically Renault's problems probably come down to budget and poor planning - they had roughly half as many staff working on the engine as Mercedes. They were up against it to deliver and haven't done enough testing.

The whole time plan was absolutely on the limit. We had it here and as far as I remember the plan did not leave much room for testing from the beginning.

Horner blames Flavio for the problems

Sorry, but this is completely wrong. Have you read the interview? He just explains who was responsible for KERS and who is responsible now. He just made the fault to mention Jehova in this explanation.

but reality is that RBR should have been helping Renault two years ago not only just starting when they get to Jerez and realise how deep the sh*t they're standing in actually is.

I do not see where RedBull is helping Renault at the moment more or less they other teams do. Renault changes the setting for the wastegate and changes the battery supplier this has nothing to do with RedBull.
Now they are in the software development process with their findings on the track...but every team does that now after the tests.

They also threw all their resources into the second half of the year believing that their brilliance would let them pull this years car together in a few months where others have been working on it for years.

If you read the interviews from last year closely you will see that they already knew in Spa that they made a fault when they realized that no contender developed the 2013 car during the summer. It is the same with Sauber...also stuck in problems now.

[myurr]

You're right in that Horner doesn't outright blame Flavio but I personally felt it implied. However he did say that his team were now offering their full assistance and expertise to help Renault resolve their (K)ERS issues. The key word being "now". Mercedes and Ferrari both had that expertise in house already, and the level of co-operation and integration between the chassis team and engine team have been widely documented. Equally it is plain to see that Red Bull and Renault operated more or less in isolation with spec sharing between them rather than as an integrated unit, more akin to a customer team than works team.

So I stand by my assertion that Red Bull have mismanaged this process. They should have been offering up their KERS expertise two years ago, integrating their chassis team with Renault's engineers, preparing the car far earlier than they targeted, and running tests weeks before they actually assembled their car, crossed their fingers, and hoped it all worked.

With test mules only an F1 car is going to have the vibration, heat and G-forces of an F1 car. Other cars can come close, it can be simulated, but you won't beat the real thing and you can still have issues once the power unit is installed in the F1 car. It's like CFD or wind tunnels - brilliant tools, absolutely essential to use them, but nothing beats the real thing. Of course all three manufacturers (plus Honda) should be using mules, but it's only one facet of the testing they needed to carry out and not the only reason Renault are struggling (presuming they didn't run one - I thought they did but have nothing concrete to back that up).

Finally I don't think that started before the summer was early enough for Red Bull either, and I believe they've acknowledged they didn't do much development work before then. I'd guess they'd have had to develop the gearbox prior to that, for example, due to the long lead time on those and that would imply they had worked on the layout of the car. But RBR themselves say that they didn't start in earnest until late last year. Mercedes were known to have a separate team working on this years car throughout 2013 and Red Bull certainly had the resources to do the same but chose not to.

[Juzh]

Newey himself said at some point they might have pushed the development of the RB9 too hard.

[bonjon1979]

Newey himself said at some point they might have pushed the development of the RB9 too hard.

I think they probably knew that they were in for a hard time the following year.

[myurr]

Newey himself said at some point they might have pushed the development of the RB9 too hard.

I think they probably knew that they were in for a hard time the following year.

There are a lot of parallels with 2008/9 where the title challenging teams pushed to the line whilst others, including Red Bull, were able to focus on the next year. It is arguable that this set Red Bull on their path to dominance given the head start they enjoyed. It just snowballs from there as the other teams end up having to try and develop new cars each year to take that quantum leap forward whereas RBR were able to just keep refining and tweaking a concept that was already at the front of the field. Even if your quantum leap has more potential there is always a huge amount of refinement to do to release that potential. You also get suckered into doing something different just because it's different - after all if you just copy RB's car then you just end up with an unrefined version of their car that is still behind them.

When you're fighting from behind and not enjoying much success it also puts more strain on your team and cracks appear, from the drivers all the way through to the bods in the wind tunnel. RBR have enjoyed tremendous stability over the past few years but I can imagine the strain is building and there will be many people wondering if it's worth it given all the success they've already enjoyed and the hard graft that is going to be needed to get back there. There'll be plenty with the fighting spirit who do want to face up to that challenge, equally there will be some that won't.

The next few months are going to be critical to Red Bull's chances for the next few years. There's a good chance that they end up being there or there abouts but never quite recapturing their previous best much like McLaren and Ferrari between 2009 and 2013.

[dren]

Yeah, but in the year you mentioned, Ferrari and Mclaren battled for the championship down to the end. Red Bull was way ahead of everyone once the tires reverted back. Only Lotus gave them a slight challenge once in a great while.

With as big of a staff and budget RB has, they should not have been this ill prepared. The Renault PU has a lot to do with it but not all of it.

[basti313]

Red Bull was way ahead of everyone once the tires reverted back. Only Lotus gave them a slight challenge once in a great while.

With as big of a staff and budget RB has, they should not have been this ill prepared. The Renault PU has a lot to do with it but not all of it.

When the tires were reverted back or when everyone else stopped the development of their cars?
And the "big staff" had its problems. Podromo leaving is one example, the gearbox issues blocking the gearbox group are another...

[Juzh]

And the "big staff" had its problems. Podromo leaving is one example, the gearbox issues blocking the gearbox group are another...

Peter Prodromou is still with the red bull team and will be for some time.
Gearbox issues blocking... what?

[jagunx51]

There are rumors that Red Bull are testing the RB10 in Spain. Which would be a breach on the regulations.

https://twitter.com/piusgasso/status/437927973078188032

https://twitter.com/CONNYloveF1/status/ ... 4907789312

https://twitter.com/Mathiasbrunner6/sta ... 7827227648

Struggling World Champions Red Bull have denied claims that they are secretly running the troubled Renault-powered RB10 between the two Bahrain tests.

Spaniard Pius Gasso, a respected and reliable Formula 1 source and former racing driver, said that he believes that an RB10 is running at the Idiada facility in Spain, south of Barcelona, ahead of the resumption of official testing later this week in Bahrain.

Gasso even tweeted a link to an audio file of the alleged ‘secret’ testing.

Another source told Speed Week correspondent Matthias Brunner that Red Bull’s Idiada running would be contrary to the tight testing limitations.

“They would only be able to drive at Idiada with a current car if they had declared it a ‘Promotional Event’ as stipulated by the regulations. And the rules say clearly that it would be purely for marketing and PR purposes,” said the source.

A Red Bull spokeswoman said simply: “We are not at Idiada!” (GMM)


Read more http://grandprix247.com/2014/02/25/red- ... -in-spain/

Pius Gassa has even uploaded a sound file of the car running. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q8mwlco0cekfimc/UfZBWKDw5B

Can't believe they'd do this as surely someone would see them. Until there are photos then it's got to be questionable.

unusual activity at groom lake ..... f1 secret test ?? ....... just joking