Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
But for exemple e math and pysics investigated in f1 is at the same level that or instance Google or any company or area that envolves that kind of area?
I know a couple of people who work or have worked in F1, all of them excellent graduates from top universities and prior racing experience like FSAE. So yes, F1 teams are looking exclusively for the very best.
Masato wrote:But for exemple e math and pysics investigated in f1 is at the same level that or instance Google or any company or area that envolves that kind of area?
The math involved in what Google does and math involved in F1 are very different. Not sure you can compare then directly. Also, F1 employs much more -- material science, chemistry, mechanics etc ect.
Anyway, it is a very competitive environment. Naturally engineers which are successfull in F1 are among the most talented in the world. Still how would you compare them? Who has higher "sportsman's level" Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps?
Formula 1 uses the most advanced techniques for manufacturing the highest precision parts ever built. In terms of a comparison, perhaps maybe companies supplying parts for the ISS (international space station) and space bound products would be subject to the same level of precision manufacturing.
They use the most sophisticated computer algorithms for solving CFD calcutations for transient conditions with billions of data points in the fastest, most economical way. The mathematics involved in these calculations alone is some of the most highly developed in order to provide the accuracy required for appreciable gains (down to 10 thousandths of a unit for convergance).
Logistics management is a huge sector for performance when it takes time to get the developed product through manufacture to the car in the shortest lead time possible.
But the one thing that Formula 1 battles more than Google and NASA is the tyranny of time. Commercial developments can be delayed, and postponed without much more than a slight delay.... Formula 1, every second counts. If you waste valuable wind tunnel hours on a wing which doesn't automatically add performance... you lose races. You struggle for two developments in a row, you lose Championships.
For a direct comparison, Google are exploring the field of artificial intelligence, developing algorithms for decision control. In essence very scary, very powerful stuff. The stuff we see on a commercial front is merely a manifestation of their algorithms for very focused topics.
The physics Formula 1 deal with goes down to a micoscopic level. How does the grain boundary develop through 'x' heat cycles? How does this affect the material physical responses to stress? What is a likely failure time for such a alloy compound? How do we reduce the maximum stress through this component by redirecting the load transfer through it? What vibration frequencies will be present in operation of this part? How will those Vibrations affect the performance? How do I reduce mass whilst decreasing the maximum stress? A lot of these questions are now answered using mathematics in optimization algorithms during the detail design process. All of these questions are asked for any component developed before it is even tested. Then once they have satisfied the design criteria, they more often than not bench test the part, and sometimes the design needs tweaking. Not a dissimilar process to developing products anywhere, but again this is all done on the smallest of time scales.
In summary, what is the level of engineering in Formula 1? To be successful in Formula 1, you need to operate at a level higher than your competitors in terms of design optimization vs time. In order to achieve this each team has technical partnerships with the leading industries in each sector; manufacturing, computing and software, and logistics.
"I continuously go further and further learning about my own limitations, my body limitations, psychological limitations. It's a way of life for me." - Ayrton Senna
Robbobnob wrote:Formula 1 uses the most advanced techniques for manufacturing the highest precision parts ever built. In terms of a comparison, perhaps maybe companies supplying parts for the ISS (international space station) and space bound products would be subject to the same level of precision manufacturing.
I can't agree with this at all. Having worked both in motorsports and in aerospace - specifically on shuttle and ISS payloads - and having plenty of friends and acquaintances still involved both in F1 and space flight stuff... I'd say F1 and motorsport in general just isn't close to that level of precision fabrication and assembly. For that matter, from my years in a machine shop, I can't imagine any part on a F1 car being built to anywhere near the same precision as say machine tool rebuilding or high precision metrology (gauge blocks, etc).
Though I would probably agree more with your later point - what the good motorsport engineers are particularly good at are time and resource management. It's rare that you run out of clever ideas of things to try - the challenge is in prioritizing.
F1 is probably as good as it gets as far as motorsports engineering is concerned... I'd say it's debatable whether its close to the most cutting edge consumer automotive engineering stuff out there... and just nowhere near some other industries.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.
But in my opinion it is exactly this time pressure that makes the engineer's job difficult. I've also seen a little bit of the space industry from the inside and of course these products and technologies are more advanced than an F1 car in many aspects. But it's "easy" (by lack of a more accurate word, my English lets me down at this late hour) to make a more advanced product if you get 5 years for design and testing rather than 5 months.
Also I believe the budgets are bigger in the space industry, for example if you look at how much money it is worth to save 1% of weight. As a result, the product is more advanced, but I'm not sure if the engineer's job is more difficult. It's different, that's for sure.
As someone who has worked various exciting places, and now works at a very large computer company in the heart of silicon valley (I'm sure you can guess which from my location), I can tell you this...
No where other than here have I met as many people who are genuinely incredibly smart. Not people who seem smart, and are mostly bullshitting, but people who genuinely really are incredibly clever. So, I really do believe that Silicon Valley has some of the smartest people in the world working in it.
That said, the density of Formula 1 teams in the area of Silverstone suggests that something rather similar is going on. That one very specific area of the world has attracted an incredibly high number of super-smart people, and some incredible engineering is going on there.
I guess what I'm really saying is... Yes, F1 teams have super smart people. So does NASA, so do many companies in Silicon Valley. There are probably plenty of other places that do too (I'd bet on Austin, and Seattle for example). So yes, F1 is on the bleeding edge. On the other hand, so are plenty of other companies involved in engineering.
I think there is a lot of brain wanking in motorsport (esp. F1). People that think they know and people that really know their stuff. Like on internet basically. I'm not saying I know, but when I don't I'm not trying to look like I know. For whatever sense it makes.
Thank you for the answers, i´m a engineering student ( computer science and telecomunications) and one of the things that atract me to F1 is the idea that those cars althought just race cars are very advanced in a engineering point of view in comparissson with the world "biggest players" in science.
This forum is a good place to have an ideia about that since i´ve never talk with a F1 engineer.
Masato wrote:Thank you for the answers, i´m a engineering student ( computer science and telecomunications) and one of the things that atract me to F1 is the idea that those cars althought just race cars are very advanced in a engineering point of view in comparissson with the world "biggest players" in science.
This forum is a good place to have an ideia about that since i´ve never talk with a F1 engineer.
Best regards
I think you stand a good chance of talking to F1 engineers on this forum.
Of course with the current results Renault have failed to achieve in pre-season testing many people outside F1 will be thinking that F1 technology is not as good as it is marketed as.
This is not a surprise when you consider that current F1 relies almost completely on FIA regulations that pretty much define the technology that must be used even before the team engineers start designing the cars.
It is not like the innovation of years gone by.
