Engine change for Kimi?

[manchild]

You forgot to put cooling liquid gauge to boiling

[Ciro Pabón]

On the contrary, MC: the car is dead cold and it's at 6.800 rpm. That's part of the problem! Head bolts are loose... the gasket will blow. See? This is the reason why only seasoned drivers, like most people from South America, should be allowed to drive Ferraris. We are used to drive teapots that explode on sight.

[ds.raikkonen]

its kimi's driving style that puts tremendous load on the engine...the Mclarens used to blow up coz of that...but the legendary Ferrari reliability stopped the engine from blowing up due to kimi's hammering....he's too brutal in the corners..its not only the engine..the driveshaft can also fail due to shock when he bounces the car off the chicanes..and the suspension might collapse too.....he was almost 0.5sec clear from P2.and under 1sec off from Schumi's record lap time which was in a V10 powered Ferrari!...that just shows how quick he is..

[segedunum]

its kimi's driving style that puts tremendous load on the engine...the Mclarens used to blow up coz of that...

Rubbish, and I still don't know where on Earth people get this stuff from. The fact is, since 2001 inclusive (Hakkinen's disastrous season down to reliability), Hakkinen, Coulthard, Montoya and Raikkonen have all had mechanical failures of varying kinds in equal measure when driving a McLaren - including engine failures.

but the legendary Ferrari reliability stopped the engine from blowing up due to kimi's hammering....he's too brutal in the corners..its not only the engine..the driveshaft can also fail due to shock

Do you have some telemetry for this? Otherwise it's meaningless. Even the anecdotal "Raikkonen broke the McLaren" thing doesn't work, because all McLaren drivers have experienced unreliability over the years. Just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. There's not even any circumstantial evidence that this is true.

What was Massa doing when he had a gearbox problem? Thrashing the car?

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, there are a few statistics that prove that Kimi "The Ray" Raikkonen is marginally "heavy on the foot", but as segedunum says, do not allow you to extend the post much. If he was, which I also doubt, that's not a quality, ehem, F1 cars have low "security factors" in design.

You are supposed to take your car to the edge, not beyond it. Specially on a 20 second lead . Let's hope is a false alarm for Ferrari. As MC said: it will last! I add: if Kimi does something different this time.

For example, taking at random Juan Pablo Montoya, another alleged "heavy foot" and comparing the time they competed together, you get this numbers:

Code: Select all

(95 Races)	 Juan Pablo Montoya	 Kimi Raikkonen
Wins              	   7 ( 7.37%)	   9 ( 9.47%)
Poles             	  12 (12.63%)	   8 ( 8.42%)
Podiums           	  30 (31.58%)	  33 (34.74%)
Points            	 307         	 314
Retirements       	  33 (34.74%)	  32 (33.68%)
Fastest Laps      	  12 (12.63%)	  18 (18.95%)
Finished Higher   	  44        	   41
Finished Higher
when both finished	  22        	   18

If you compare Kimi with our World Champion, Fernando Alonso, again when they raced together, you get this:

Code: Select all

(89 Races)	 Kimi Raikkonen	 Fernando Alonso
Wins             	   10 (11.24%)	  15 (16.85%)
Poles             	  13 (14.61%)	  14 (15.73%)
Podiums           	  33 (37.08%)	  38 (42.70%)
Points            	 332         	 389
Retirements       	  26 (29.21%)	  22 (24.72%)
Fastest Laps      	  19 (21.35%)	   8 ( 8.99%)
Finished Higher   	  38         	  43
Finished Higher   
when both finished	  24         	  25

Difference? Yes. Marginal? You are the judge.

[Tom]

segedunum wrote:

ds.raikkonen wrote:

its kimi's driving style that puts tremendous load on the engine...the Mclarens used to blow up coz of that...

Rubbish, and I still don't know where on Earth people get this stuff from.

Its not entirely untrue, Kimi's driving may be harder on some components than say Alonso's but it wouldn't have much difference on engine life really.

The best example I can think of is the WRC where Marcus Gronholm comes out the blocks flying, setting fastest stage times throughout the start of most rallies and flattening Sebastian Loeb, then something breakes and Loeb (who was written off for the win all weekend) finds himself in the lead with a huge margin over the next guy.

[boban-mk]

I feel very when someone compares Montoya with Kimi. I know Ciro is from Columbia and understand, but comparing both is irrelevant. I don't want to start about, which teamate was Montoya at the end of 2005 season with his strategy "come and hit me please". At the end, it wasn't Kimi's fault that Montoya was expeld from McLaren. I have respected Montoya, and in 2002 was his fan, but he just was a litle bit unlucky, comming with good name in McLaren and got Kimi's sindrom to quickly. Yes, Kimi was more familiar with the car and that is realy important, but in 2006 they create two diferent cars for Montoya too, but he was even more away from Kimi.

Kimi had many failures in 2005. But did someone forget how many times his wing fly away, or how many times engine was changed before the race loosing 10 positions, and how many times he was on pole with full tank, or why FIA changed qualification in the mid of season. Please, Alonso is champion but to be a champion you need to be a good driver and to have best car, last two season also it was and most reliable one.
Comparing points or viktories is very irelevant. For example if you compare Fisico with Button, or Comparing Barichelo with Heidfield or Webber. You will see big difference in wins and points but difference of driver ability is completly oposite.

[checkered]

Though Ferrari

aren't saying it yet, I'm pretty much convinced that they'll change the engine. They've done every simulation possible by now and "sleeping on it" won't change the outcome. The engine can take it, but since it can't be disassembled to correct the slight overheating's effect from those lap or two that they didn't yet get the info to KR on the pit board, they'd propably have to protect the engine way too much to be competitive in the race. Unless the team is just keeping its cards really close to the chest ... but that'd be kinda pointless.

Malaysia, with its airstrip-wide track should ease their considerations somewhat. Ferrari might even be a bit curious to see the telemetry of a Kimi "recovery run". (2005: Magny-Cours 13th to 2nd, Silverstone 12th to 3rd, Monza 11th to 4th, Suzuka 17th to 1st ... In recent history, I doubt very many drivers come even close to that many places gained during a season).

At the (now defunct) BBC 5Live msgboard a diligent participant once did a one-on-one comparison of Kimi vs. his all team mates while they were actually racing with the same equipment. He did this actually to prove that there was truth to the tale that KR breaks his cars.

I didn't bother to copy it then and am too lazy to reproduce the stats. Anyway, counting all the known tech defects that resulted in either a DNF or an engine change, Kimi only "broke" more cars on his debut season. After that, it's been either even, or his team mates have suffered more tech worries. -05 only compounded the myth, because the breakages mostly happened during practices which resulted in the highly publicised 10 place penalties.

Interestingly Nick Tombazis made a special point of mentioning that they won't open up more ventillation for what might be the hottest race of the season (seeing that other teams sport a variety of chimneys). We'll see if Ferrari's performance matches his confidence.

[Ciro Pabón]

Ferrari might even be a bit curious to see the telemetry of a Kimi "recovery run". (2005: Magny-Cours 13th to 2nd, Silverstone 12th to 3rd, Monza 11th to 4th, Suzuka 17th to 1st ... In recent history, I doubt very many drivers come even close to that many places gained during a season).

Guys, pleeeze. Where do you get your numbers? At the DOSWTOOOH (department of statistics we take out of our hats)? A little analysis can give you more than feelings, and I am LATIN, caramba! Did I already say I live in ColOmbia? Really?

Total overtakes, 2006 (top 21 drivers)

"Rules" exclude:

a) any place changes made during pit stops
b) all lapping or unlapping manoeuvres
c) any place changes made during the first lap

Ot Driver
-------------------------------
26 M Schumacher
22 R Schumacher
21 R Kubica & G Fisichella
20 F Massa
19 J Button
18 S Speed
16 T Monteiro
14 N Rosberg & R Barrichello
13 C Albers
12 J Trulli, V Liuzzi & D Coulthard
11 N Heidfeld
10 C Klien & K Räikkönen
9 M Webber
8 P de la Rosa
7 JP Montoya & R Doornbos

I use that to qualify tracks, before you think I'm obssesed with numbers. Even if I am, these numbers (and others!) give you a feeling about how good Kubica and Speed really are, even if they don't get enough camera time.

BTW, when will they show in a small box, on TV transmissions, all the overtakes? Perhaps that would help a little to understand better drivers ratings.

Clue: if you type http://www.google.com you can find all kind of marvelous info BEFORE you post! And get off my lawn! (sorry, Checkered, that was a joke, as well as the DOSWTOOOH "thing").

[Ray]

And get off my lawn!

Ciro, you are pure genious!

[checkered]

[Jumping around confounded, looking at my feet]

Lawn? Where? I don't see it!

Erm, btw, on those stats ... I was writing about the very unusual 2005 season when the penalties forced a multitude of very brave (all out risky) race tactics on McLaren. I don't see what overtaking in 2006 had to do with that (Macca was hardly in the contention last year anyway, was it). The 2005 stats stand as I gave them, check it out. Obviously I didn't differentiate how the places were gained, those numbers are impressive by their own right. I have an F1 links list like you wouldn't believe and I hardly ever refer directly to any statistics but the simplest ones. This approach has been formed by experience alone.

When you gain places, you gain them because you have speed at the right times. No amount of tactics can compensate for that, but since you differentiate ... did you consider places gained by others' DNFs, by any chance? Those seem to be lacking from your "excluded" list. I once wrote a reply to a thread considering who was "the greatest overtaker". I started out in earnest, but soon, as details compounded to enormous lengths the message got a humorous tone by the sheer length of different elements to consider and their relationships. After that, only the most jaded people kept on insisting, and most appreciated the relativity of it all.

Please, don't make me go back to dig through the 5Live archives (they're, as far as i know, still on the web in some truncated form). Finding the stats I was writing about would be hellish since I have only the faintest idea where the original message might be. 5Live was so active, it might well mean tens of thousands of messages to comb through. The analysis, though, was extensive and thoroughly valid and I only remember something about it because it was so unusual since someone changed his steadfast beliefs by actually doing the exercise.

Speaking of engine failures, 2005 was difficult for Macca, of course, but they had a good fighting spirit throughout even when they lost - the kind only underdogs can have. But the one engine failure that really hurt them happened at their home arena much earlier - Nürnburgring 2003, they experienced a failure in a clear lead position. Had they won, they would've gotten the WDC that season. Oh well, so much for history.

Malaysia is going to be indicative of team performance only if it doesn't rain. If Ferrari is going to suffer a second penalty in two races, and the driver consensus is anything to go by, it's just going to keep the Maranello squad from extending their lead. Testing times were very varied, there was really very little to take home in the way of indications for the race from there. There are two or three teams that can still spring a very positive surprise, no matter what happens with Ferrari.

[jddh1]

I've got this from F1Rejects: "Telemetry of Kimi "The Ray" Raikkonen's street car leaked to the press". Or was it from F1Fakery? I'm not sure...

I love how he did not forget to turn on his high beams. Perhaps this is an endorsement to the night races on Kimi's side.

[ds.raikkonen]

Segedunum, i dont have any telemetry data for this...and probably no one has except the guys at Mclaren-Mercedes F1 (i believe,not sure)...yu dont need that to observe the driving style of a driver...many F1 experts have said that too. Alonso is also hard on the car...if you have seen his tyre warming exercise yu ll know that...he always takes it above the limit a notch

[Ciro Pabón]

[Jumping around confounded, looking at my feet]

Lawn? Where? I don't see it!

Erm, btw, on those stats ... I was writing about the very unusual 2005 season when the penalties forced a multitude of very brave (all out risky) race tactics on McLaren.

The "lawn thing" and the "Department of Statistics..." are lines from Fark.com, as you probably know.

Well, let's see what happened in 2005, when Räikkönen got the 7th place (again, Ralf seems to either be a bad qualifier or a good overtaker) and Rubens got the "pole overtaker" position:

Code: Select all

 Drivers' Season Total 
===================== 

                   1 2  3  4 5  6  7  8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
 20  Barrichello   0 0  3  0 0  1  2  6 0  0  0  1  4  0  1  0  1  0  1 
 17  R Schumacher  2 0  1  0 0  3  1  1 -  1  0  0  0  4  0  4  0  0  0 
 17  Button        1 1  2  0 -  -  0  0 -  0  0  1  0  5  1  4  0  0  2 
 17  Sato          0 -  2  0 -  -  2  0 -  1  3  0  0  6  0  0  0  0  3 
 14  Fisichella    0 0  0  0 1  0  5  0 -  0  0  1  1  1  0  4  1  0  0 
 14  Alonso        2 0  0  0 0  0  0  0 -  0  0  0  5  2  0  0  0  5  0 
 13  Räikkönen     0 1  0  0 0  0  0  0 -  1  0  0  0  0  5  1  0  5  0 
 13  Villeneuve    0 0  0  2 0  0  1  1 -  0  1  2  0  2  0  1  1  0  2 
 12  Massa         0 0  1  4 0  1  0  1 -  0  0  0  1  1  1  2  0  0  0 
 10  Montoya       0 0  -  - 1  1  5  0 -  0  0  2  0  0  0  0  1  0  0 
  9  Heidfeld      0 1  0  0 0  1  1  0 -  0  1  0  0  5  -  -  -  -  - 
  9  Webber        0 0  0  0 0  1  0  0 -  0  0  0  1  2  2  2  0  0  1 
  8  Monteiro      0 1  0  0 1  1  1  2 0  1  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  0 
  8  M Schumacher  0 0  0  1 0  1  4  0 0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  1  0 
  8  Coulthard     0 1  1  0 0  0  0  0 -  1  0  0  -  0  1  2  0  0  2 
  7  Trulli        0 0  0  0 0  0  1  0 -  0  0  1  0  0  2  1  2  0  0 
  6  Klien         0 1  -  - -  -  -  0 -  0  2  1  -  0  0  2  0  0  0 
  6  Pizzonia      - -  -  - -  -  -  - -  -  -  -  -  -  0  3  0  0  2 
  6  Doornbos      - -  -  - -  -  -  - -  -  -  0  0  1  0  0  0  1  4 
  4  Karthikeyan   0 0  0  0 0  0  0  1 0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  0  0  2 
  3  de la Rosa    - -  3  - -  -  -  - -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  - 
  3  Albers        0 0  0  0 0  0  1  0 0  0  1  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0 
  2  Friesacher    0 1  1  0 0  0  0  0 0  0  0  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  - 

  0  Davidson      - 0  -  - -  -  -  - -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  - 
  0  Wurz          - -  -  0 -  -  -  - -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  - 
  0  Liuzzi        - -  -  0 0  0  0  - -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  - 
  0  Zonta         - -  -  - -  -  -  - -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
226                5 7 14  7 3 10 24 12 0  5  8  9 12 30 14 28  6 12 20

Or in 2004, when Felipinho shined (has this any relationship to his move to Ferrari?) and Kimi got the 12th position in this matter, kudos to Coulthard:

Code: Select all

Drivers' Season Total 
===================== 

                  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 USA FRA GBR GER HUN BEL ITA CHN JPN BRA 
========================================================================= 
 29  Massa        0 0 0 2 0 0 3 5   0   0   0   0   2   3   4   0   9   1 
 25  Coulthard    0 0 1 2 0 0 0 4   1   0   1   1   0   5   3   2   1   4 
 24  Fisichella   1 4 0 0 0 0 0 1   1   2   2   0   0   0   3   3   2   5 
 23  Montoya      3 1 0 0 1 2 5 0   2   0   1   2   0   1   0   0   1   4 
 19  Sato         0 1 1 0 0 0 0 4   5   0   0   4   0   0   2   1   1   0 
 18  Barrichello  0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1   0   2   0   7   0   3   0   0   3   2 
 17  Button       0 1 1 0 2 0 2 1   0   0   0   4   0   2   2   2   0   0 
 17  M Schumacher 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0   1   0   0   0   0   1   7   6   0   2 
 16  Panis        1 3 0 0 0 1 0 0   0   3   0   3   1   1   0   1   2   - 
 16  Webber       0 3 2 0 0 0 0 0   2   1   0   3   1   0   2   0   0   2 
 15  Alonso       0 2 2 0 1 0 0 0   0   0   4   0   0   0   0   0   1   5 
 14  Räikkönen    0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0   4   2   1   1   0   2   0   0   0   2 
 12  R Schumacher 0 0 3 0 3 2 0 0   0   -   -   -   -   -   -   1   0   3 
 11  A Pizzonia   - - - - - - - -   -   -   -   2   0   1   8   -   -   - 
 11  Klien        2 0 1 1 0 0 0 1   0   0   1   0   1   1   2   0   0   1 
  9  Bruni        1 2 0 0 0 0 0 2   0   0   0   0   0   0   1   0   0   3 
  7  Heidfeld     1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0   0   2   0   0   0   1   1   0   1   0 
  5  Trulli       0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0   0   0   0   1   0   0   1   -   0   1 
  5  Baumgartner  0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0   0   0   1   0   0   1   0   0   0   2 
  4  da Matta     0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0   0   1   0   1   -   -   -   -   -   - 
  4  Zonta        - - - - - - - -   -   -   -   -   1   0   1   1   -   1 
  3  Villeneuve   - - - - - - - -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   0   0   3 
  2  Pantano      0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0   0   0   0   0   0   0   1   -   -   - 
  1  Gené         - - - - - - - -   -   1   0   -   -   -   -   -   -   - 

  0  Glock        - - - - - - - 0   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   0   0   0 
------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
307              9 20 15 6 7 5 11 19 16 14 11  29   6  22  38  17  21  41

Do you want to check 2003? You got it. Again Ralf appears, this time in top position (wow). Monty "had to row" a lot. Of course, Michael, but Coulthard again? Rubens was capable, again. Now you might start to see some trends:

Code: Select all

 Drivers' Season Total 
===================== 

                    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 HUN ITA USA JPN 
 ===================================================================== 
  34  R Schumacher  3  1  4  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  6  0  11   -   2   7 
  28  Montoya       2  1  7  0  2  0  0  2  1  0  8  0   0   0   5   0 
  27  M Schumacher  1  4  3  0  1  1  0  0  0  0  4  2   0   0   6   5 
  22  Coulthard     3  0  2  0  3  4  0  1  0  0  4  2   0   0   3   0 
  21  Barrichello   0  2  3  1  1  1  0  2  0  6  6  0   0   0   0   0 
  21  Alonso        5  0  7  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  2  0   0   1   5   0 
  20  Webber        3  2  3  0  2  4  0  1  0  1  1  1   0   0   2   0 
  19  Räikkönen     4  1  7  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  3  0   1   0   2   1 
  16  Panis         2  1  0  0  6  0  0  0  1  0  1  1   3   0   1   0 
  14  Villeneuve    2  -  1  0  0  4  0  0  3  0  0  2   0   0   2   - 
  13  Frentzen      1  0  4  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  4  0   1   2   0   0 
  13  Button        1  0  0  0  2  1  -  0  0  1  3  2   2   0   1   0 
  13  Trulli        2  4  1  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  0  0   1   0   2   2 
  11  Wilson        3  0  1  0  0  1  0  0  1  1  1  0   2   0   1   0 
  11  da Matta      1  0  2  1  0  1  0  0  0  0  1  1   2   0   1   1 
   9  Firman        2  0  0  1  2  1  0  0  0  1  2  0   -   -   0   0 
   8  Heidfeld      0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1  2  0  0  1   0   1   3   0 
   7  Pizzonia      1  0  2  0  0  1  0  0  0  0  3  -   -   -   -   - 
   6  Fisichella    2  -  1  1  0  0  0  1  0  0  0  0   1   0   0   0 
   2  Sato          -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -   -   -   -   2 
   1  Verstappen    0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  0  1   0   0   0   0 
   1  Kiesa         -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  1   0   0   0   0 
   1  Baumgartner   -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -   1   0   -   - 
   1  Gené          -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -   -   1   -   - 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 320               38 16 48  4 19 20  0  8  8 12 49 14  25   5  36  18

My conclussion? The number of OT in a year is so small that any exceptional race weighs heavily. Look how the best of the best got roughly two overtakes average per race! That is pathetic.

Perhaps that explain why an exceptional performance, by Kimi or by anyone, weighs so much in our minds. If you wish, you can continue up to 1997...

This work, that I have followed after every race for the last 8 years, is the work of Brian Lawrence, as the people that saw some graphs by track or year, that I made, may remember. You can check his work at rec.autos.sport.f1.moderated in the venerable USENET, a good source if you need one. People there is older than me (if such a thing is possible)!

I repeat my graphics here, which I haven't updated, for the lovers of overtakings, just to show that regulations and tracks (and of course, wet/dry conditions) weigh a lot on that numbers. BTW, overtakes by drivers that DNF are counted.

Räikkönen is "underrepresented" probably, because of the rule that "no first lap" OT are counted and he pulled a few. Schumacher's famous "pit" overtakes are not taken in account either. I don't make the rules, ask Brian (they seem logical to me, but hey, everybody is entitled to an opinion and as many posts he wishes, thank heaven):





I made this graphics to show that Tilke said he was going to provide "overtaking" tracks and he did. Nobody noticed, btw, if you ask me. Did you know that in the last 10 years the race at Bahrain, in 2006, had the largest number of overtakings? Some TV directors should be shot, I tell you. I believe some of them are the source of complains about the "no overtaking" thing. People only notice overtakings when they happen between people on the firsts positions (and, thus, on camera).

Sorry for the excursion out of thread, but I wanted to show that Kimi hasn't been a great overtaker, which seems logical (how can you overtake if you qualify well?). Having mercy on the forum, I did not put forward statistics on "number of times overtaken", where Kimi certainly have good numbers, which again is totally logical.

Please, ignore this post and return to the thread.

[Scuderia_Russ]

its kimi's driving style that puts tremendous load on the engine...the Mclarens used to blow up coz of that...but the legendary Ferrari reliability stopped the engine from blowing up due to kimi's hammering....he's too brutal in the corners.

What an absoloute joke of a post. Mercedes engines were blowing up when Kimi was still in school!