Renault down because of engine and tyres

[Torso]

In 2005 and 2006 Renault won because they had the best engine, the best tyres and the most effective team orders.

Now we see what they can do when they no longer enjoy these advantages...

[manchild]

In 2005 and 2006 Renault won because they had the best engine, the best tyres and the most effective team orders.

Now we see what they can do when they no longer enjoy these advantages...

Where did you hear that RS27 isn't the best engine?

RS27 is in fact RS26E, RS26E was the best engine in 2006 just as RS25 was in 2005. So, RS27 is probably still the best engine.

Their only problem is in tyres that don't work well on chassis that was developed for years to suit Michelin tyres.

[Torso]

In 2005 and 2006 Renault won because they had the best engine, the best tyres and the most effective team orders.

Now we see what they can do when they no longer enjoy these advantages...

Where did you hear that RS27 isn't the best engine?

RS27 is in fact RS26E, RS26E was the best engine in 2006 just as RS25 was in 2005. So, RS27 is probably still the best engine.

Their only problem is in tyres that don't work well on chassis that was developed for years to suit Michelin tyres.

Ok, maybe a little to bombastic about the engine, because I agree with u that it may still be the best engine in some way. But with the rew-limiter the best side of the engine cannot be used like in the past. Remember Alonso playng with the rew limiter for passing other cars in 2005 and 2006.

[manchild]

On a contrary - all Renault normally aspirated engines were less powerful and with less max rpm than for example Ferrari engines. They've always relied on torque so limiting revs to 19k probably harmed them the least of all teams.

[Torso]

On a contrary - all Renault normally aspirated engines were less powerful and with less max rpm than for example Ferrari engines. They've always relied on torque so limiting revs to 19k probably harmed them the least of all teams.

wrong. in 2005 Ferrari rewed higher..true, but could not exploit it due to stresses created from tyre-wear

bur in 2006 Renault produced more power related to calculated "overrewing". Ferrari caught up by the end of the season, yet as we saw..reliability didn`t match.

Renault was really clever with the potential loop-holes in 2006. I actually didn`t expect that they would make it in 2006 based on their 2005-success based on reliability and other teams poor reliability. But they did...they did manage to build the fastest race-engine of all in 2006 thanks to ingenious use of rew-limiter. And with the superiour Michelins... they could only lose it by themselves.

[manchild]

Ferrari always revved higher and had more bhp. Honda too as Renault's main rival in the late 80s early 90s. Normally aspirated Renaults were always torque, torque, torque. At best they had same revs as Ferrari in some points but never dominantly higher revs.

[Torso]

Ferrari always revved higher and had more bhp. Honda too as Renault's main rival in the late 80s early 90s. Normally aspirated Renaults were always torque, torque, torque. At best they had same revs as Ferrari in some points but never dominantly higher revs.

back in the late 80`s early 90`s both Honda and Ferrari used V12`s. A V12 can produce more rews reliably due to less vibrations than a V10 but has a narrower torque-peak= less torque on lower rews. So a V10 is by nature more driveable. The only advantage u may find in a V8 with the same capacity is fuel consumption. So V10 was and still is the optimal "drivers engine".
Honda produced the best V12 in 89-91. It was the main reason Senna won and Ferrari lost in those seasons.

Renault managed to build a V10 that was nearly as fast(powerful) but cosiderably more driveable and lean on fuel than the V12`s of Honda and Ferrari. That engine forced Honda to withdraw from F1 and Senna to switch team in order to get back in the best car. Untill Mercedes brought berylliumaluminium into their 72dgr V10 and surpassed Renault on power Renault provided the superiour engine in all dimensions except peak hp (wich belonged to Ferrari`s V12 untill the end of 1995 when Ferrari put a new and quite pathetic first version V10 into their 1996 challenger).
From late 1997 Renault was beaten by Mercedes on power...and chickened out just like Honda late 1991)

Renault experimentet with a 111dgr V10 to reclaime the "throne" as the superiour enginemanufacturer. Ferrari on the othe hand tried to reclame old superiourity by designing a V12 to V10 "specs". But the FIA quickly banned anything but the V10 conf and that forced Ferrari to abandon their new V12 project. What brought Ferrari back into competitiveness was the introduction f berylliumaluminium into their V10 from 1999. Sadly, one could say, Schumacher didn`t get the maximum out of that because of his absence from injury, othervice having an engine as good as McLaren would surely have put him up for the title in 1999 as much as it did in 2000 when the Ferrari and McLaren was almost only separated technically by theuir paint-job...

Renault`s 111dgr newer worked though. As they turned back to a 90dgr and found a new "secret" to success. We don`t know what that is or was yet, but it sure enabled Alonso and Fisi to run their engines at a higher and superiour rews for a limited number of laps at will in any full GP situation. It together with superiour Michelin-support offered the titles in 2005 and 2006.

Sure Honda and Ferrari produced some impressive on the bench rew figures..and so did Mercedes and BMW aswell. But in race only Ferrari has come close to Renault on potential peak rews as of last part of 2006.

It should not be painful to realise Renault had the superiour package in 2005 and 2006. It was designed "with" the new introduved rules rather than "from" them... And some claime the FIA runs an open show? Haha noone is fooled I hope. 2005 was "designed" to put anything but a Ferrari at the front. Did it make f1 better? I don`t know, or at least I can`t say it did..
Anyway... having the superiour package is normally what it takes to win in f1. And btw...rews(=hp in f1) is no real secret in f1 thanks to the surveillance systems (even used by the FIA) already available since the early 90`s.

[DaveKillens]

In F1, revs are a relevant benchmark. But that doesn't describe the entire picture.
Let's take a trip down memory lane and revisit the 2003 Hungarian GP. It was the first win for Renault as a team, and it was also Alonso's first win. The Renault R23B had a unique engine, one very different from everyone else with it's 112 degree cylinder bank angle. This layout did not offer any increased power (in fact, probably handicapped by the cylinder angles), and it had more vibration. But it was optimized for driveability, a lower CG, giving the Renault drivers a decided advantage in the difficult conditions of HUngary. The car hooked up better. With the better CG and mechanical layout of the suspension, it made better use of the Michelins, allowing a great drive out of the corners.
Since then Renault have enjoyed this philosophy, to have a back end that delivered usable traction when it was needed. Any suspension shortcomings in recent history was mainly at the front end, not the rear.
I doubt in any way if the current Renault engine is lacking. They just don't have as good an interaction between the powerplant, suspension, chassis, and tires as their competitors.

[ds.raikkonen]

last year Renault R26 had 730bhp...similar to SF..whereas Williams Cosworth had 750bhp(claimed)...but the RS26 was reliable...only one engine failure (at Monza)...there is no doubt that Renault is struggling with Bridgestone tyres..bu they ll turn things around soon..Heikki is da one to look out for

[mahesh248]

i THINK the whole System is not going along with the BS tyres ..sad ..for renault they will be working on it for sure ..

[jaslfc]

Maybe its just the alonso factor?
similarly with how after shumy left benetton the team just was not performing.

could it be that the car was designed more to suit alonso's driving style... and now they coming to terms why changing it? (just out of the blue suggestion)

[Vasco]

Maybe its just the alonso factor?
similarly with how after shumy left benetton the team just was not performing.

could it be that the car was designed more to suit alonso's driving style... and now they coming to terms why changing it? (just out of the blue suggestion)

I actually think that might be one the factors. Correct me if I'm wrong but Renault are struggling to get heat into their tires. It could be that if they had Alonso in the team, he could make better use of the tires with his aggressive turn-in.

[Torso]

Maybe its just the alonso factor?
similarly with how after shumy left benetton the team just was not performing.

could it be that the car was designed more to suit alonso's driving style... and now they coming to terms why changing it? (just out of the blue suggestion)

I am quite confident that if renault still had those fabulous Michelins on their racer then they would be fighting for the front row and podiums from the start of this season.

Benetton didn`t change from 1995 to 1996, as we saw in Hockenheim the car was still competitive, but sure the handling of the car was always demanding and only Schumacher knew how to get the best of it when more wing was required.

But to claime Fisichella has "forgot" how to deal with the handling in the car he drove for several seasons..LOL;-)

Nope Renault will improve over this season when they learn how to fit their new shoes properly. Right now we just vitness how much tyreknowledge are worth in f1...

[segedunum]

Honda produced the best V12 in 89-91. It was the main reason Senna won and Ferrari lost in those seasons.

I'd seriously question the accuracy of that. The only time I believe Honda ever produced a V12 was in 1992, as a knee-jerk response to Renault in terms of power and some form of quest by Honda's head man to do a V12. It failed miserably because the Renault V10 was more powerful, gave more straight line speed and was a better all round engine.

[joseff]

The 1991 MP4/6 was also V12 powered btw. But it wasn't as refined as their own previous V10. By the time they sorted it out, Williams has sorted out their electronics and the rest is history.