2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[xpensive]

I don't buy the advantage in cooler compressed air the split turbine design should have. The compressor turbine can quite easily be insulated.
But it may allow for a longer electrical motor having smaller diameter, resulting in less mass moment of inertia.

Still, I think one of the advantages the Mercedes PU design has is packaging, allowing for smaller engine covers and neater piping.

I agree, the "split turbo" is obviously for packaging reasons, but journos love to try being technical

[Juzh]

I don't really understand you calculations? You have 4 MJ which the 120 Kw MGU-K can use during one lap. That means 160 hp for 33.33 sec. If you want any other energy during this lap it has to come directly from the MGU-H meaning if you have 760 hp for more than the 33.33 secs you need to be able to draw more than 120 kW from the exhaust to send directly to the MGU-K.

True. After theoretical 4MJ from ES to mgu-k is depleted, you're stuck with whatever mgu-h can provide directly to mgu-k.

Well it's kinda complicated, first of all you need the MGU-H to feed the battery with 2000 kWs to maximize the 4000 kWs discharge per lap, how you spend this over the lap is another matter, matched to the direct energy-flow to the MGU-K.

Wouldn't be surprised if the MHPE-unit recycles as much as 80 kW from the MGU-H at full speed, only using 40 from the battery.

It's complicated yes, thats why I said theoretical or maybe a quali lap.

[Abarth]

And don't forget that almost every team is using some way or other of saving fuel while driving. The main reason explaining why teams using similar engines have different fuel use is not drag, but fuel saving "tricks".

I wonder what it is that does bring you to this conclusion....

[...]Williams may use as much fuel as any other merc team if williams choose to give their drivers full power in top gears. But looks like they don't think it's a good idea, so they prefer to run 4 kg lighter in average during the race, having the biggest advantage in the first laps, but trading away some km/h of top speed.

Apart the fact that they were always the quickest in the speed trap??

[Holm86]

I don't really understand you calculations? You have 4 MJ which the 120 Kw MGU-K can use during one lap. That means 160 hp for 33.33 sec. If you want any other energy during this lap it has to come directly from the MGU-H meaning if you have 760 hp for more than the 33.33 secs you need to be able to draw more than 120 kW from the exhaust to send directly to the MGU-K.

True. After theoretical 4MJ from ES to mgu-k is depleted, you're stuck with whatever mgu-h can provide directly to mgu-k.

Well it's kinda complicated, first of all you need the MGU-H to feed the battery with 2000 kWs to maximize the 4000 kWs discharge per lap, how you spend this over the lap is another matter, matched to the direct energy-flow to the MGU-K.

Wouldn't be surprised if the MHPE-unit recycles as much as 80 kW from the MGU-H at full speed, only using 40 from the battery.

So what you're saying is that the Mercedes engine never draws the full 120 kW from the battery to supply the MGU-K. They draw around 60 kW from the battery and 60 kW from the MGU-H?? This would make it possible to have the full 760 hp during a whole lap. But you wouldnt be able to charge the full 4MJ for the next lap as the MGU-H does not charge the battery and the MGU-K can only supply 2 MJ to the battery a lap.

[Abarth]

Well it's kinda complicated, [....].

Indeed.
Firstly, different circuits with ifferent layout, different WOT - braking - part load percentages, and different reqirements, as qualifying, race behind a competitor, free air, pushing before pit stop, whatever.

I think it's impossible for us to figure out the best strategy of MGU-H -K and ES use.
Simulations which can account for all parameters will be essential, and even with these tools it seems that only one manufacturer has really figured out the best usage of the systems.

One key area will surely be using the ICE in WOT condition even in reduced torque demand (part load), and sending MGU-H energy to es without powering MGU-K, and going as far as to go to apply negative torque at MGU-K on circuits which are not consumption critical or in quali laps.

The whole PU competition mainly boils down to who has figured the best way to simulate this multi variables thingie and is able to best implement it via software.

[xpensive]

Well, you go from one lap to another, don't you? Enter the lap fully charged and then store 2000 kWs of braking energy plus 2000 of MGU-H for the next, the balance will come directly from the MGU-H the way I can figure.

[Holm86]

Well, you go from one lap to another, don't you? Enter the lap fully charged and then store 2000 kWs of braking energy plus 2000 of MGU-H for the next, the balance will come directly from the MGU-H the way I can figure.

But how are you going to charge the battery with 2 MJ's from the MGU-H if it is feeding its energy to the MGU-K instead of the battery during the lap.

[xpensive]

This is xactly what I suspect that MHPE has mastered

[Holm86]

This is xactly what I suspect that MHPE has mastered

But then as I said before they will have to be able to draw much more energy out of the exhaust than the 60-80 kW which is suspected is the output of the MGU-H.

[bhall]

So what you're saying is that the Mercedes engine never draws the full 120 kW from the battery to supply the MGU-K. They draw around 60 kW from the battery and 60 kW from the MGU-H?? This would make it possible to have the full 760 hp during a whole lap. But you wouldnt be able to charge the full 4MJ for the next lap as the MGU-H does not charge the battery and the MGU-K can only supply 2 MJ to the battery a lap.

Because both systems can't be used concurrently to power the car (due to the 120 kW cap placed on the MGU-K), I think the idea is to make the MGU-H as efficient as possible so that it can charge the ES as quickly/completely as possible during the 33.3s when ES/MGU-K power is allowed. At all other times, the MGU-H powers the MGU-K/spools up the turbine, etc, while the MGU-K charges the ES under braking.

If every component is maxed-out in terms of efficiency, you get full power all the time.

...or so says the carrot on my shoulder.

[Holm86]

So what you're saying is that the Mercedes engine never draws the full 120 kW from the battery to supply the MGU-K. They draw around 60 kW from the battery and 60 kW from the MGU-H?? This would make it possible to have the full 760 hp during a whole lap. But you wouldnt be able to charge the full 4MJ for the next lap as the MGU-H does not charge the battery and the MGU-K can only supply 2 MJ to the battery a lap.

Because both systems can't be used concurrently to power the car (due to the 120 kW cap placed on the MGU-K), I think the idea is to make the MGU-H as efficient as possible so that it can charge the ES as quickly/completely as possible during the 33.3s when ES/MGU-K power is allowed. At all other times, the MGU-H powers the MGU-K/spools up the turbine, etc, while the MGU-K charges the ES under braking.

If every component is maxed-out in terms of efficiency, you get full power all the time.

...or so says the carrot on my shoulder.

I still don't see how you are supposed to get full power all the time like that?? As I've said multiple times before this would mean a much higher energy output from the MGU-H. You ONLY have 33.33 sec with full power on the MGU-K if taken from the battery. After that the MGU-H can't give the MGU-K 120 kW's of power if its not capable of extracting more than 120 kW from the exhaust!..

[bhall]

I still don't see how you are supposed to get full power all the time like that?? As I've said multiple times before this would mean a much higher energy output from the MGU-H. You ONLY have 33.33 sec with full power on the MGU-K if taken from the battery. After that the MGU-H can't give the MGU-K 120 kW's of power if its not capable of extracting more than 120 kW from the exhaust!..

I think you're correct on all counts. I also think that's what makes this whole thing so difficult.

Nevertheless, it is the target for which all teams aim. Or it should be, anyway. I imagine most F1 engineers probably get a chubby any time the words "unlimited" and "power" appear within the same sentence.

[Holm86]

Nevertheless, it is the target for which all teams aim. Or it should be, anyway. I imagine most F1 engineers probably get a chubby any time the words "unlimited" and "power" appear within the same sentence.

I think so too. This is why I believe that when the engine manufactures solves the reliability they will try so use more fuel in the exhaust in a anti-lag/"afterburner" sort of way to be able to generate as much power from the MGU-H as possible. This will of course use more fuel so would only be relevant during qualification or on tracks which demands less fuel.

[bhall]

I think so too. This is why I believe that when the engine manufactures solves the reliability they will try so use more fuel in the exhaust in a anti-lag/"afterburner" sort of way to be able to generate as much power from the MGU-H as possible. This will of course use more fuel so would only be relevant during qualification or on tracks which demands less fuel.

Personally, I think that's precisely the reason for Red Bull's fuel sensor woes. It's like they're using more fuel to get more energetic exhaust to prop up an ineffective MGU-H.

But, that's neither here, nor there.

[Abarth]

But how are you going to charge the battery with 2 MJ's from the MGU-H if it is feeding its energy to the MGU-K instead of the battery during the lap.

One possibility is to use the partial load phases to run the ICE WOT and feeding the whole MGU-H power to ES. Quick modulation according to torque demand of the driver could be additionally made with MGU-K delivering negative torque.

But I agree, substantial charging of ES with MGU-H will only work with it having a power generation of >>120kW