Is team order tactics such as McLarens acceptable in 2007?

[jaho101]

I think F1 needs something out of the old CART formula that prevented team orders from having such a large effect. It's called: Having more than one pitstop team. I mean seriously, they can afford it, they could probably make space for it (or limit the amount of people allowed on the stop). This allows both cars to choose whatever strategy they want, so we could have Lewis and Fernando Pit on the same lap and at least there might be less b**ching.

[Rob W]

...so we could have Lewis and Fernando Pit on the same lap and at least there might be less b**ching.

The whole thing boils down to this for me: Alonso is a master at driving a car heavy wtih fuel. He is also a master at doing great lap-times right at the end of his stints comparated to pretty much everyone around him. Hamilton cannot be expected, no matter how talented he is, to have that level of race-craft so early in his F1 career.

In Melbourne Alonso purely did what he does so well. I.e.: drove amazing laps at the end of his stint. No team orders, no conspiracy - he just drove his race well as he he's done time and time and time again in the past few years.

Rob W

[DaveKillens]

Historically, McLaren has never practiced "team orders" once a race is underway. Of course, for all teams it's a sin to collide with your teammate, all teams have that carved in stone.
Personally, I see no team orders coming out of McLaren. In fact, I believe that once the race is underway, it's everyone for himself. Witness the fact Hamilton passed Alonso in the first turn in Australia.
Personally, I'm opposed to team orders, even though it's considered an acceptable practice.
We're only two races into the season, it's a bit early to make judgements of this sort. Let's wait and see how the season plays out, and I will be looking for comments from a certain party once Hamilton finishes ahead of Alonso. Since this person is convinced McLaren have team orders.

[bizadfar]

In the 2 first races of 2007 McLaren has without any doubt proved they run a team order system for this season.

That is just your opinion. Politically correct poll question should say: "do you agree that In the 2 first races of 2007 McLaren used team orders".

The way poll looks now it is identical to Venom's Massa is idiot 1.Yes 2.Yes with big difference that Venom was making a sarcastic joke while you're trying to impose your opinion as the indisputable fact on which we should vote.

Australia:
Hamilton`s last pit-stop takes 2,5 secs more than the fuelload he received should require.

Malaysia:
Hamilton is considerably slower than Alonso while holding up the Ferrari`s. Alonso builds a comfortable lead and then Hamiltons McLaren suddenly is the fastest car on track.

I am not saying team order tactics to support 1 driver over the other is wrong, I am just asking if it`s accetable under the 2007 rules as they stand.

And lookig at the current result of the poll people seem to think it is.

Anyway if I`m a "Troll" for ackowledging these events then so be it. I ca`t stop from picking it up simply because u don`t like the topic. Maybe u should ask youreselves if it`s not more "Trollish" to ignore that McLaren has given no reasonable explanations for any of this.

Where I really wanna go with this is that the FIA may be wise to remove the team order rule all together with their upcoming banning of TC..

Cause police the team order rule the FIA clearly cannot (or will not) do.

Australia: Hamilton held in traffic. Even if his fuel stop was a bit slower. Pit crew arn't robots you know. I bet you'd take 25sec to change 1 tire. Simply because you don't know what you're up against, and making stupid comments.

"Hamilton's Mclaren SUDDENLY" Its called Formula 1. Comprehend the race properly. He was struggling with the rear sliding and these tires do NOT like it. So you could imagine the faster dropoff of pace. In the pitstop they probably reduced front wing (they definately adjusted it). So that's your answer...

Do your own clear thinking and research before making such stupid nutcase comments.

[whiplash]

Every Team in some way uses team orders for Mclaren at Melbourne Lewis was an unknow quantity so you are going to favour the current world champion in malasiya Lewis told us on the pre race interview he was runing longer than fernado which I feel was to get him out at the first pit stop infront of one of the Ferarris you can't expect or plan for both cars to be first and second at the end of the first lap starting from fourth and second.
BTW even Williams use team orders, race each other don't take each other off and the one in front with 12 laps to go stays in front you hold station and bring the cars home.

[Torso]

Historically, McLaren has never practiced "team orders" once a race is underway. Of course, for all teams it's a sin to collide with your teammate, all teams have that carved in stone.
Personally, I see no team orders coming out of McLaren. In fact, I believe that once the race is underway, it's everyone for himself. Witness the fact Hamilton passed Alonso in the first turn in Australia.
Personally, I'm opposed to team orders, even though it's considered an acceptable practice.
We're only two races into the season, it's a bit early to make judgements of this sort. Let's wait and see how the season plays out, and I will be looking for comments from a certain party once Hamilton finishes ahead of Alonso. Since this person is convinced McLaren have team orders.

Jerez 1997
Australia 1998
Spa 1998

Need I include more evidence of McLarens most famous team orders "once race is underway"?


Of course u have the more complete team order tactics such as Senna`s extra technical support with more technicians and specially designed engines over Prost or the treatment of Berger(LOL)...

add to add to

[Torso]

That is just your opinion. Politically correct poll question should say: "do you agree that In the 2 first races of 2007 McLaren used team orders".

The way poll looks now it is identical to Venom's Massa is idiot 1.Yes 2.Yes with big difference that Venom was making a sarcastic joke while you're trying to impose your opinion as the indisputable fact on which we should vote.

Australia:
Hamilton`s last pit-stop takes 2,5 secs more than the fuelload he received should require.

Malaysia:
Hamilton is considerably slower than Alonso while holding up the Ferrari`s. Alonso builds a comfortable lead and then Hamiltons McLaren suddenly is the fastest car on track.

I am not saying team order tactics to support 1 driver over the other is wrong, I am just asking if it`s accetable under the 2007 rules as they stand.

And lookig at the current result of the poll people seem to think it is.

Anyway if I`m a "Troll" for ackowledging these events then so be it. I ca`t stop from picking it up simply because u don`t like the topic. Maybe u should ask youreselves if it`s not more "Trollish" to ignore that McLaren has given no reasonable explanations for any of this.

Where I really wanna go with this is that the FIA may be wise to remove the team order rule all together with their upcoming banning of TC..

Cause police the team order rule the FIA clearly cannot (or will not) do.

Australia: Hamilton held in traffic. Even if his fuel stop was a bit slower. Pit crew arn't robots you know. I bet you'd take 25sec to change 1 tire. Simply because you don't know what you're up against, and making stupid comments.

"Hamilton's Mclaren SUDDENLY" Its called Formula 1. Comprehend the race properly. He was struggling with the rear sliding and these tires do NOT like it. So you could imagine the faster dropoff of pace. In the pitstop they probably reduced front wing (they definately adjusted it). So that's your answer...

Do your own clear thinking and research before making such stupid nutcase comments.

I would love to learn your thoughts on McLarens team order in Australia 1998.. Was it fair to treat Coulthard that way? After all it was the FIRST RACE of the season and David was no rookie.

[Tom]

Well its very simple really, Mika, David and Ron agreed before the race that their new braking system (subsequently banned by the FIA, typical) was so good it was to be a Mclaren victory barring reliability problems, so to avoid the drivers taking each other out they had a gentlemans agreenebt that whoever reached the first corner ahead would take the win, both drivers agreed and believed it fair, as any team would.
On race day Mika had a better sart and stormed into the first corner P1 meaning he would take the win. Unfortunetly he sped in the pits during the race and had to serve a 10 second stop/go as it was then. He obliged and Coulthard took the lead of the race. The team explained to David exactly what had happened and he thought long and hard and, being a gentleman, he stuck to the gentleman's agreement, slowing down to let Mika lead an infamous McLaren 1-2 over the line.
Those are my thoughts based on what the drivers said themselves, it was ultimetly Coulthard's descision to let Mika pass and he accepts the responsibility for that, end of.

[Torso]

Well its very simple really, Mika, David and Ron agreed before the race that their new braking system (subsequently banned by the FIA, typical) was so good it was to be a Mclaren victory barring reliability problems, so to avoid the drivers taking each other out they had a gentlemans agreenebt that whoever reached the first corner ahead would take the win, both drivers agreed and believed it fair, as any team would.
On race day Mika had a better sart and stormed into the first corner P1 meaning he would take the win. Unfortunetly he sped in the pits during the race and had to serve a 10 second stop/go as it was then. He obliged and Coulthard took the lead of the race. The team explained to David exactly what had happened and he thought long and hard and, being a gentleman, he stuck to the gentleman's agreement, slowing down to let Mika lead an infamous McLaren 1-2 over the line.
Those are my thoughts based on what the drivers said themselves, it was ultimetly Coulthard's descision to let Mika pass and he accepts the responsibility for that, end of.

Well even if McLaren prefer to use their own vocabulary of what everybody else refer to as team order tactics then so be it. It doesn`t change the fact of the matter.

Personally I find McLarens "idea" that there somehow is a difference in their team order tactics to that of anybody else is quite amuzing...actually on the brink of being hillarious

"oh no that was not a team order, that was an agreement between "gentlemen"" hehehehehehe OH MY GOOOD that is so funny:-)(and Brittish!)!!!

But as I said before: The use of team order tactics to put one driver above the other in ANY form are understandable and it shouldn`t be necessary to cover them up by these silly theatrical displays!

Team orders are a part of f1, always was and always will be untill no team can put more than 1 car on the grid. So let`s have that stupid unpolicable rule removed shall we?

[Sawtooth-spike]

Well its very simple really, Mika, David and Ron agreed before the race that their new braking system (subsequently banned by the FIA, typical) was so good it was to be a Mclaren victory barring reliability problems, so to avoid the drivers taking each other out they had a gentlemans agreenebt that whoever reached the first corner ahead would take the win, both drivers agreed and believed it fair, as any team would.
On race day Mika had a better sart and stormed into the first corner P1 meaning he would take the win. Unfortunetly he sped in the pits during the race and had to serve a 10 second stop/go as it was then. He obliged and Coulthard took the lead of the race. The team explained to David exactly what had happened and he thought long and hard and, being a gentleman, he stuck to the gentleman's agreement, slowing down to let Mika lead an infamous McLaren 1-2 over the line.
Those are my thoughts based on what the drivers said themselves, it was ultimetly Coulthard's descision to let Mika pass and he accepts the responsibility for that, end of.

Well even if McLaren prefer to use their own vocabulary of what everybody else refer to as team order tactics then so be it. It doesn`t change the fact of the matter.

Personally I find McLarens "idea" that there somehow is a difference in their team order tactics to that of anybody else is quite amuzing...actually on the brink of being hillarious

"oh no that was not a team order, that was an agreement between "gentlemen"" hehehehehehe OH MY GOOOD that is so funny:-)(and Brittish!)!!!

But as I said before: The use of team order tactics to put one driver above the other in ANY form are understandable and it shouldn`t be necessary to cover them up by these silly theatrical displays!

Team orders are a part of f1, always was and always will be untill no team can put more than 1 car on the grid. So let`s have that stupid unpolicable rule removed shall we?

wow did Ron dennis Steal your Lolly pop or something?

It was an agreement they had and stuck to, live with it, There is also a reason A second driver is called a SECOND Driver. Also got the better parts over fisi, because FISI IS THE SECOND DRIVER.

If i gave you 10 pound, dollars or whatever for you to put a bet on ether Alonso or Hamlton,

You gonna put ur money on the 2 time world champ because your money is safer. Hamltons good and i think he could be great, but you still gonna put ut money on alonso this year because he is For a Fact a double world champ!

[Tp]

I agree with you there Sawtooth-Spike, any team would do the same in that situation, its common sense.

Looking at this year, me, personally have no problems with Mclaren engineering a race plan, that will allow Alonso to win over Hamilton. Brings a bit of strategy into it, which will make it more interesting and more of a challenge to the competing teams.

What I am against is the team radioing to tell the driver (usually Rubens) to pull over and let the team mate pass.

[segedunum]

We should all get used to seeing Hamilton aiding Alonso whenever he can, whilst getting the occasional race victory.

Remember that McLaren own Lewis Hamilton, lock, stock and barrel and he does as he's told. He's been manufactured in a way just about no other driver has been. In fact, it's probably a big part of the reason why he's in the team.

[Rob W]

Suddenly this has become a discussion about team orders and McLaren yet no-one hs bothered to mention Ferrari - who practically made them the norm for seven or eight years. Often they didn't even bother to try to hide the fact.

Rob W

[DaveKillens]

As long as there is a manufacturer's title, it's only logical each team strives to get both cars as high in the standings as possible. And as long as both cars carry identical sponsorships, it isn't critical to the sponsors who wins, just as long as one of them crosses the finish line first and gets their picture splashed in the media.
Before each race, the drivers, tacticians, and team principals sit down and have a thorough meeting playing out expected scenarios and driver expectations. Of course the start can't be predicted, every driver has to make his own way for the first lap before things can settle down and the drivers can start to impliment their roles. Of course at Malaysia Hamilton understood he was to keep the Ferraris behind him to give Alonso as good a chance as possible for the win.
Torso, you seem obsessed with the theory that McLaren have "team orders" where Alonso is supposed to finish ahead of Hamilton. Have you ever considered the fact that Alonso is the better driver at this time? He is famous for his starts, he can practice strategy with the best, and has a better overall race pace than Hamilton. Maybe it's driver abilities that put him ahead of Hamilton for these first two races. You quote numbers and times to support your theories. So this is simple, if Hamilton was ordered to allow Alonso past during the second wave of pit stops in Australia, he had to run slower laps. Just prove it by posting his lap times during this period.
The term "team orders" is a broad generalization, it comes in varying degrees. There's the overall team strategy that comes out of the pre-race strategy meeting, and at the other end of the spectrum are the specific orders to allow the teammate past (Shu/Barrichello at Austria).

[bizadfar]

Australia:
Hamilton`s last pit-stop takes 2,5 secs more than the fuelload he received should require.

Malaysia:
Hamilton is considerably slower than Alonso while holding up the Ferrari`s. Alonso builds a comfortable lead and then Hamiltons McLaren suddenly is the fastest car on track.

I am not saying team order tactics to support 1 driver over the other is wrong, I am just asking if it`s accetable under the 2007 rules as they stand.

And lookig at the current result of the poll people seem to think it is.

Anyway if I`m a "Troll" for ackowledging these events then so be it. I ca`t stop from picking it up simply because u don`t like the topic. Maybe u should ask youreselves if it`s not more "Trollish" to ignore that McLaren has given no reasonable explanations for any of this.

Where I really wanna go with this is that the FIA may be wise to remove the team order rule all together with their upcoming banning of TC..

Cause police the team order rule the FIA clearly cannot (or will not) do.

Australia: Hamilton held in traffic. Even if his fuel stop was a bit slower. Pit crew arn't robots you know. I bet you'd take 25sec to change 1 tire. Simply because you don't know what you're up against, and making stupid comments.

"Hamilton's Mclaren SUDDENLY" Its called Formula 1. Comprehend the race properly. He was struggling with the rear sliding and these tires do NOT like it. So you could imagine the faster dropoff of pace. In the pitstop they probably reduced front wing (they definately adjusted it). So that's your answer...

Do your own clear thinking and research before making such stupid nutcase comments.

I would love to learn your thoughts on McLarens team order in Australia 1998.. Was it fair to treat Coulthard that way? After all it was the FIRST RACE of the season and David was no rookie.

DId you even watch that race? I've been going to the Aus GP since 1996. I was a huge Mika supporter. So this may seem bias. But yes he deserved it. He had a higher pace than Coulthard and basically served a drive through for "miscommunication" He was fastest on the day... Then again drivers can choose to dishonour team orders like in Imola... 82 i think it was.