Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2014

[taperoo2k]

I really don't like it when teams disparage the sport in an attempt to get the rules changed to suit their cars. Which is all the fuel flow rates is about. Don't be surprised if the FIA comes down on Red Bull like a tonne of bricks at the appeal, it's one thing to complain about the sensors, another to drill holes into it to make it fit (as the rumours go) and another to disparage the entire sport because you are not winning. It's sour grapes nothing more than that. I wish the team management at RBR did what the guys and girls in the pit lane and factory are doing - Getting on with it. On the plus side Riccardo is doing a fine job at the moment.

[Gerhardsa]

Oh, sucks to not be 1 second faster than everyone else. Man up and fix the problems Mr Newey, with the biggest budget in F1 there are no excuses.

What problems are there to fix? Newey's car has no problems. He's done his job, the car is class of the field in aero department. The problem is with the renault, which he has little influence on.

The RB10 is a very good car, no doubt, but after what was displayed yesterday by Merc after the safety car yesterday, I have my doubts that RB have the best car aero wise at this stage. 2 Seconds a lap, whilst fighting each other for every inch of the track was a massive eye opener for the rest of the field. That cannot be just Engine otherwise Williams, McLaren and FI would be further up the road?

[Juzh]

Oh, sucks to not be 1 second faster than everyone else. Man up and fix the problems Mr Newey, with the biggest budget in F1 there are no excuses.

What problems are there to fix? Newey's car has no problems. He's done his job, the car is class of the field in aero department. The problem is with the renault, which he has little influence on.

The RB10 is a very good car, no doubt, but after what was displayed yesterday by Merc after the safety car yesterday, I have my doubts that RB have the best car aero wise at this stage. 2 Seconds a lap, whilst fighting each other for every inch of the track was a massive eye opener for the rest of the field. That cannot be just Engine otherwise Williams, McLaren and FI would be further up the road?

As I said in the "how many races will merc win":
Rosberg had new soft tires on his car, while everyone else was on at least 8 laps older mediums or softs. This, and the fact that both RBs were in traffic created such big advantage for mercs, otherwise It would probably be something similar to qualifying aka 1s/lap. 1s is easily achieved with engine power alone.

[SpecialCircumstances]

The RB10 is a very good car, no doubt, but after what was displayed yesterday by Merc after the safety car yesterday, I have my doubts that RB have the best car aero wise at this stage. 2 Seconds a lap, whilst fighting each other for every inch of the track was a massive eye opener for the rest of the field. That cannot be just Engine otherwise Williams, McLaren and FI would be further up the road?

I think you are making the mistake of taking saying that the RB10 has the best aero to mean that Merc has mediocre aero.

No one thinks the Merc is a bad car outside of the engine and RB10 aero being "the best" doesn't mean that Merc's isn't also very very good and second best.

[XRayF1]

What problems are there to fix? Newey's car has no problems. He's done his job, the car is class of the field in aero department. The problem is with the renault, which he has little influence on.[/quote]

The RB10 is a very good car, no doubt, but after what was displayed yesterday by Merc after the safety car yesterday, I have my doubts that RB have the best car aero wise at this stage. 2 Seconds a lap, whilst fighting each other for every inch of the track was a massive eye opener for the rest of the field. That cannot be just Engine otherwise Williams, McLaren and FI would be further up the road?[/quote]

As I said in the "how many races will merc win":
Rosberg had new soft tires on his car, while everyone else was on at least 8 laps older mediums or softs. This, and the fact that both RBs were in traffic created such big advantage for mercs, otherwise It would probably be something similar to qualifying aka 1s/lap. 1s is easily achieved with engine power alone.[/quote]

I don't believe this being entirely true. Or at least it is not the whole truth.

Just looking at Qualifying the difference is more than a second. I believe it to be in the region of 1,5s, but depends on the track layout for sure. Monaco may provide their best opportunity to secure a win in the earlier parts of the season ... ?

And while the allegedly low(er) power of the engine (no way the Renault engine has 80BHP less than the MERC's, like Helmut said) explains some of the difference, however, yesterday VET & RIC were not on the bottom of the speed trap list, like during the FPs and Q. The cars were in the middle of the list, arguably RB already acknowledged that a setup change (perhaps the same rake, but less wings) was in order.

In my world, the engine is sound, but the complexity of power output, drivability, Brake-by-wire and some others means that RB is currently running some serious compromise on the car.

Does that mean they can easily catch up the 1-1,5s?

No, I do not believe so, at least not within this year - because also MERC will not stand still, neither aerodynamically, nor engine wise.

[Juzh]

I don't believe this being entirely true. Or at least it is not the whole truth.

Just looking at Qualifying the difference is more than a second. I believe it to be in the region of 1,5s, but depends on the track layout for sure. Monaco may provide their best opportunity to secure a win in the earlier parts of the season ... ?

And while the allegedly low(er) power of the engine (no way the Renault engine has 80BHP less than the MERC's, like Helmut said) explains some of the difference, however, yesterday VET & RIC were not on the bottom of the speed trap list, like during the FPs and Q. The cars were in the middle of the list, arguably RB already acknowledged that a setup change (perhaps the same rake, but less wings) was in order.

In my world, the engine is sound, but the complexity of power output, drivability, Brake-by-wire and some others means that RB is currently running some serious compromise on the car.

Does that mean they can easily catch up the 1-1,5s?

No, I do not believe so, at least not within this year - because also MERC will not stand still, neither aerodynamically, nor engine wise.

Erm? Ric was 0.9s off the merc in quali. Power deficit is significant and very obvious. 80bhp for 6.7s a lap from kers of 2009, 2011-2013 was worth 0,3-0,4s a lap. Now multiply this by 4 or 5 times and you get at least 1.2-1.5s off the pace in engine power alone.
I don't think they will catch up, no one will. No amount of software tweaks will give you 1s a lap.

[XRayF1]

I don't believe this being entirely true. Or at least it is not the whole truth.

Just looking at Qualifying the difference is more than a second. I believe it to be in the region of 1,5s, but depends on the track layout for sure. Monaco may provide their best opportunity to secure a win in the earlier parts of the season ... ?

And while the allegedly low(er) power of the engine (no way the Renault engine has 80BHP less than the MERC's, like Helmut said) explains some of the difference, however, yesterday VET & RIC were not on the bottom of the speed trap list, like during the FPs and Q. The cars were in the middle of the list, arguably RB already acknowledged that a setup change (perhaps the same rake, but less wings) was in order.

In my world, the engine is sound, but the complexity of power output, drivability, Brake-by-wire and some others means that RB is currently running some serious compromise on the car.

Does that mean they can easily catch up the 1-1,5s?

No, I do not believe so, at least not within this year - because also MERC will not stand still, neither aerodynamically, nor engine wise.

Erm? Ric was 0.9s off the merc in quali. Power deficit is significant and very obvious. 80bhp for 6.7s a lap from kers of 2009, 2011-2013 was worth 0,3-0,4s a lap. Now multiply this by 4 or 5 times and you get at least 1.2-1.5s off the pace in engine power alone.
I don't think they will catch up, no one will. No amount of software tweaks will give you 1s a lap.

Why would you multiply this by 4 or 5?
Wouldn't you have to multiply this 0,4s by 10?
I mean the 2014-ERS provides a total of 160BHPx33.3s = 5328BHPs of energy per lap.
The 2009-2013 KERS did the same with (80BHPx6,7s) 536 BHPs.
This results to 10 times more energy you are able to spend than 2013.
The lap difference in 2013 was 0.4s, the result should be staggering 4s.

Now, counting off some external parameters which reduces these 4s, like traction, power distribution, etc. and the 2014-ERS is worth some 2-2.5s per lap in my guesstimate. Always seen with identical cars in mind.

As Helmut Marko points out for last couple of days, the Renault PU lacks 80BHP.
Question is, where? In the ICE or the ERS?

Renault (and others) said that the ICE is sound and does not lack raw HP - this may be confirmed by RB's performance in rain, where brute power is less desirable.

Leaves ERS.
80 BHP less from ERS would mean 1.2s or thereabouts, correct?
But as you rightfully pointed out, RIC was 'only' 0.8s off the Merc's pace in qualification.
For the moment leaving aside a supposedly superior RB aero chassis, this means that Helmut was overly pessimistic.
It would leave the Renault ERS short of 53 BHP (and not 80BHP).

If it really is a SW kink don't you think that a sudden performance increase is at least possible?
I would think so at least theoretically. But perhaps not entirely probable.

[Juzh]

Even a lack of 50bhp is significant as you just calculated. We don't know where this deficiency is coming from, it could be a mix of everything. I'm being sceptical whether or not you can gain 50 bhp from an engine with software tweaks alone.

[beelsebob]

The RB10 is a very good car, no doubt, but after what was displayed yesterday by Merc after the safety car yesterday, I have my doubts that RB have the best car aero wise at this stage. 2 Seconds a lap, whilst fighting each other for every inch of the track was a massive eye opener for the rest of the field. That cannot be just Engine otherwise Williams, McLaren and FI would be further up the road?

I think you are making the mistake of taking saying that the RB10 has the best aero to mean that Merc has mediocre aero.

No one thinks the Merc is a bad car outside of the engine and RB10 aero being "the best" doesn't mean that Merc's isn't also very very good and second best.

I think that actually can be just engine. The two of them had opened up a 1 second gap in only the first half of the start finish straight when the safety car went in. That's based on engine and traction alone.

[Powershift]

The RB10 is a very good car, no doubt, but after what was displayed yesterday by Merc after the safety car yesterday, I have my doubts that RB have the best car aero wise at this stage. 2 Seconds a lap, whilst fighting each other for every inch of the track was a massive eye opener for the rest of the field. That cannot be just Engine otherwise Williams, McLaren and FI would be further up the road?

I think you are making the mistake of taking saying that the RB10 has the best aero to mean that Merc has mediocre aero.

No one thinks the Merc is a bad car outside of the engine and RB10 aero being "the best" doesn't mean that Merc's isn't also very very good and second best.

I think that actually can be just engine. The two of them had opened up a 1 second gap in only the first half of the start finish straight when the safety car went in. That's based on engine and traction alone.

Aero efficiency doesn't count down the straight anymore? Or gearing?

[beelsebob]

Aero efficiency doesn't count down the straight anymore? Or gearing?

Given that it's pretty much accepted that Merc's gearing is longer than everyone else's, and that there are teams with slipperier cars (e.g. Williams and FIndia), no, I don't think these are relevant.

[lio007]

News in the Aerodynamics department of RBR:
Prodromou is on his way to McLaren (gardening leave), and Dan Fallows is the new Head of Aerodynamics with immediate effect.

[Juzh]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/04/09/p ... departure/

[jagunx51]

News in the Aerodynamics department of RBR:
Prodromou is on his way to McLaren (gardening leave), and Dan Fallows is the new Head of Aerodynamics with immediate effect.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/04/09/m ... -red-bull/

[taperoo2k]

I think you are making the mistake of taking saying that the RB10 has the best aero to mean that Merc has mediocre aero.

No one thinks the Merc is a bad car outside of the engine and RB10 aero being "the best" doesn't mean that Merc's isn't also very very good and second best.

I think that actually can be just engine. The two of them had opened up a 1 second gap in only the first half of the start finish straight when the safety car went in. That's based on engine and traction alone.

Aero efficiency doesn't count down the straight anymore? Or gearing?[/quote]

It counts. Mercedes has the perfect package between power train and chassis, they've been working on it since 2012. In fact putting the compressor at the front of the power train and the turbo at the back of it was an idea from the Chassis department. It's given them certain advantages over Renault and Ferrari. Mostly to do with reduced Turbo lag, meaning more performance.

I think the main problem with the Renault Power Train is getting all the electronic systems to work together, reliability issues with ERS systems (not helped by Red Bull's packaging, which has improved) and other problems we might not be aware of. Until the development freeze on Power Trains ends, Ferrari and Renault won't be able to try and copy the Mercedes Turbo solution, which has decreased turbo lag meaning they get more out of the ERS systems for performance.
I expect Red Bull will have cut the deficit somewhat near the end of the season, but it won't be until 2015 until they've caught up properly. Then you have to factor in McLaren and Honda, they might have something special up their sleeves or it could be a season of struggles. I for one like the regulation changes, it's spiced things up a treat.

The only thing that bothers me about Red Bull is the management side of things.