The Japanese Way....failing?

[ketanpaul]

I was wondering is it just a coincidence that both the japanese teams are struggling or is there something wrong with the Japanese way of work?

[naknak_56]

I don't think its the Japanese way that is failing, I think its the big corporation way that fails because they expect a return on their investment instantly.

Look at what ford did to Stewart, come in to the sport install their people when that didn't work they hire then fire team members every five minutes so there is no consistency within the team.

Everyone is then looking out for number one so a climate of buck passing reigns supreme and the team collapses in on its self IMHO.

BTW hi to y'all

[manchild]

I was wondering is it just a coincidence that both the japanese teams are struggling or is there something wrong with the Japanese way of work?

I think it has to do with their mentality and tradition. F1 requires a lot of compromising and patience while Japanese way is "do or die", "white or black", "all at once or nothing at all", "no prisoners", "no surrender". So, essentially it is the wrong philosophy that's preventing both teams from development into winning teams.

If SA managed to develop RA106 into midfield car than I'm sure that Honda could have developed it much more further up the grid. Unfortunately for them, they were too greedy and since they're loaded they've opted to throw away RA106 and design new car that has turned out to be a back marker.

[zender05]

Hmm. Is it not only a matter of passion, but of experience? I would argue that although the Japanese way isn't proving to be the most successful so far, the main reason why they aren't winning is experience. Although Honda has been building engines for quite some time, it take more than just a motor (i.e. a competitive chassis) to win a World Championship, as Ciro pointed out in another thread.

Sauber's been around since 93? Ferrari the 50's, Mclaren the 60's and so on and so on.

Although Honda as a team were competing in the 60's, I would argue that consistency was a problem, as they bowed out after a few years.

The big boys in F1 not only have money, they have a lineage of cars to draw insight from. I think what they need is time and perserverance. An attitude change would help as well, but they can win with their current one, albeit it might take longer.

Oh, and I've been lurking these forums for awhile now. Great place!

[Ciro Pabón]

First, welcome Zender05. Hope you enjoy around.

Second, one more thread complaining of driver and team performance and I am going to kill myself... Right now, the forum homepage lacks technical threads!

We have, on the other hands, complains about Kimi, Felipe, Renault and McLaren, an analysis of Davidson food poisoning, another about how Webber uses his right foot, a proclaim on the superiority of F1 and finally, predictions about how Kimi will sweep the field... At least, when Schumi was driving, we have usually just one thread complaining about or defending him!

On thread:

Perhaps Toyota and Honda are not that bad. Maybe Ferrari and McLaren are extremely good this year and were fortunate in the "musical chairs" game that Schumacher retirement unleashed.

Anyway, could you (sigh...) provide some figures about why you think Toyota and Honda are not advancing? Yes, japanese work in teams but also the other manufacturers... I bet meetings are not an Eastern invention! What happens to Williams? Too many meetings? Toyota's engines converted them to the "japanese way"? Or perhaps germans at BMW work each one separated from the others, without discipline, hanging around in hawaian shirts? I think is normal to expect variability in team performance: I doubt very much it depends mainly on national traits.

Finally, talking about "european love for individuality", that (I'm sorry if wrong) the thread seems to imply, the only guy in recent history that dared to invent, fund, construct cars from nothing, get drivers, mechanichs, build a factory and FIA permission in a few months is Aguri Suzuki. Last time I checked, this remarkable individual was japanese... How many of us are so daring, individualistic and brave as to accomplish that? It sounds very "samurai-ish" to me...

Don't give me the "Spyker did the same" reply : they did it, in part, because FIA wanted new teams and they have been racing for ages.

[naknak_56]

I wouldn't say it comes down to experience as BMW have done a good job and so did Stewart , I think it comes down to managerial styles.

Pretty much all the personnel in the paddock seem to move around from team to team and both Honda and Toyota have had well respected high level people in their teams, but with out the freedom and time to do their jobs properly ( look at how long it took Ferrari with Ross, Rory,MS and Stepney ) they could never succeed.

I think to succeed any team needs good people , consistency and time.

[ds.raikkonen]

its abt the way i think...in japan a committee makes decisions in every dept..when it oughtta be a single guy..who is the right person fer the job..too many cooks spoil the broth.

[ConsFW]

its abt the way i think...in japan a committee makes decisions in every dept..when it oughtta be a single guy..who is the right person fer the job..too many cooks spoil the broth.

How do you know they make all their decisions via committee? Did you work in Honda F1 or Toyota F1, or is this hearsay and conjecture, guesses and assumptions?

[Ray]

its abt the way i think...in japan a committee makes decisions in every dept..when it oughtta be a single guy..who is the right person fer the job..too many cooks spoil the broth.

Or as I like to say, too many chiefs not enough indians!

I think that it is the managerial style of the japanese. That and they are not under one roof making decisions. From what I know of course, I may be totally wrong. But to effectively run any kind of team, the decisions need to be made in one room face to face. I think they are not totally on board with the idea that they should appoint people and let them delegate instead of Big Brother watching over their shoulders and contradicting them. They need to provide the resources and let them run it how they see fit. A corportae mentality is obviously not working inside a race team.

[DaveKillens]

Although Honda and Toyota aren't at the level of performance they desire and predicted, it seems it's for different reasons. Honda has been steadily progressing, to the point where Button amassed more points in the last half of the seasn than anyone. But they got the '07 design wrong, it has serious flaws. Their situation is very similar to Renault, we shall see how each of those teams react and bring their performance back up. Honda was in the same position last year, they had front end issues for the first half of the season, then corrected them enough to become very productive.
Toyota seem to have some master plan, to steadily improve at a conservative pace, but always moving forward. The trouble is, their competitors are moving forward quicker then they are. They did set up their race operations far away from corporate headquarters, in Germany, so I wonder just how much meddling and influence is going on. Who knows, we can only speculate in our semi-ignorant manner, since the public is not informed on the inner workings. But it's my personal opinion Toyota has to go through a major shakeup to get to the level of success they crave.

[pRo]

I saw an interesting interview with Mika Salo some time ago, I believe it was done during last summer. He sure had a clear view of why japanese teams have issues. According to him, japanese take such pride of their work that you can't say something's wrong with it. Even when you know something's definitely wrong. Instead you have to be very polite, compliment his work and then you may suggest how to change it. And even then you have to be very, very sorry about it.

He did go into details on several areas, but as I don't recall it too well, I won't try to remember them. I have that interview on DVD, but I don't know how to put that online, if anyone's interested in it?

But in the end it was very obvious that the japanese way of working probably isn't the best possible in a very competitive world, like F1.

[ds.raikkonen]

its abt the way i think...in japan a committee makes decisions in every dept..when it oughtta be a single guy..who is the right person fer the job..too many cooks spoil the broth.

How do you know they make all their decisions via committee? Did you work in Honda F1 or Toyota F1, or is this hearsay and conjecture, guesses and assumptions?

yu wanna know?? it was Murray Walker!! in the Oz GP 07

[ketanpaul]

My dad was in Japan about 2 weeks back and he noticed that there are certain basics wrong with the Japs. No offence to wny japanese members this forum might have, but he found the Japanese society pretty inward looking. They have small houses, they dont socialise much, they just go about minding their own business. Dont get me wrong, if you ask them for help, they will go out of the way to help you, but otherwise they wont even bother to smile at you. Secondly, they have a language problem, even after so much of development, they think english is a threat to their own language and have not adapted with the changing times to invite more open-ness. Thirdly, as pRo pointed out, they have to be extremely polite, and criticism is something looked upon as very impolite. This is specially important because in F1 if an idea doesn't work, you have to say "It is wrong" or "This is not working" as soon as possible and scratch your brain upon finding another solution.

[jaslfc]

all we can say is give it time.. i dont thinkso its so much about the japanese culture coz most of the ppl in these 2 teams are european.
maybe its down to experience. you got to understand over the last 5-7 years onli ferrari mclaren renault and to a certain extend william were the only succesfull teams.. these teams are very experience and understand the f1 culture. honda has been almost there but still they cant seem to find the consistent race pace. if u noticed last couple of years button has been good in qualifying and on pace until the first pitstop after than their pace just drops.. toyota has prove themselves as the most consistent mid field team but dont see them breaking into the top.

as for bmw.. they had the experience with williams and also by taking over a good midfield team... that could be a reason for their good performance.

[DaveKillens]

I saw an interesting interview with Mika Salo some time ago, I believe it was done during last summer. He sure had a clear view of why japanese teams have issues. According to him, japanese take such pride of their work that you can't say something's wrong with it. Even when you know something's definitely wrong. Instead you have to be very polite, compliment his work and then you may suggest how to change it. And even then you have to be very, very sorry about it.

A little story to support your post. Back in the '60's Honda hired MIke Hailwood to ride their road race motorcycles. In a test in Japan, he realized the rear shocks were horrible, yet when he asked about the shocks, was informed they were adequate. He asked the mechanics to remove the Honda designed rear shocks and hand them to him. Upon receipt, he threw them into a nearby pond. It was a great insult and shock to the Honda team, but they accepted his opinion and after that used Girling shocks.