2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Abarth]

Ferrari blongs with 90% to Fiat Chrysler, and Fiat Chrysler are producing as many cars as Renault and Daimler AG (Mercedes) together.
If Fiat Chrysler really wants, they could easily put on the table comparable business potential to help Ferrari.

[FoxHound]

Ferrari blongs with 90% to Fiat Chrysler, and Fiat Chrysler are producing as many cars as Renault and Daimler AG (Mercedes) together.
If Fiat Chrysler really wants, they could easily put on the table comparable business potential to help Ferrari.

They do not have the R&D of Renault nor Daimler.

[321apex]

Ferrari blongs with 90% to Fiat Chrysler, and Fiat Chrysler are producing as many cars as Renault and Daimler AG (Mercedes) together.
If Fiat Chrysler really wants, they could easily put on the table comparable business potential to help Ferrari.

How many hybrid cars does Chrysler Fiat sell in a year?
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/108 ... sumed-dead

What hybrid tech prowess does Chrysler-Fiat offer Ferrari? What hybrid technology partners do they have in their portfolio?

Mercedes, Honda, Renault-Nissan are not only in a better financial position, but they offer hybrid technology for the street. Which means that all those companies have built up technical know how in hybrids. Internally as well as thru business partners.

[321apex]

Corollary to my Ferrari statement, I will offer you this imponderability.

If what I said is close to being correct, then Ferrari will find it hard to succeed in hybrid F1.
If Ferrari can not win, they may/will cease to participate.
If Ferrari stops racing in F1 what will happen to F1 without them ?

If you are on the same page as I am, then the only way out is for F1 to somewhat "back track" on technology.

[FoxHound]

Corollary to my Ferrari statement, I will offer you this imponderability.

If what I said is close to being correct, then Ferrari will find it hard to succeed in hybrid F1.
If Ferrari can not win, they may/will cease to participate.
If Ferrari stops racing in F1 what will happen to F1 without them ?

If you are on the same page as I am, then the only way out is for F1 to somewhat "back track" on technology.

F1 can live without Ferrari, and Ferrari can do without F1. The whole symbiosis thing is taken way overboard in my view.
As for the tech, they already have some recovery systems on their production cars. Developed by the F1 guys at Gestione Sportiva according to Top Gear for the La Ferrari. Or is it just La Ferrari....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuhbbAqkkmI[/youtube]

[321apex]

Corollary to my Ferrari statement, I will offer you this imponderability.

If what I said is close to being correct, then Ferrari will find it hard to succeed in hybrid F1.
If Ferrari can not win, they may/will cease to participate.
If Ferrari stops racing in F1 what will happen to F1 without them ?

If you are on the same page as I am, then the only way out is for F1 to somewhat "back track" on technology.

F1 can live without Ferrari, and Ferrari can do without F1. The whole symbiosis thing is taken way overboard in my view.
As for the tech, they already have some recovery systems on their production cars. Developed by the F1 guys at Gestione Sportiva according to Top Gear for the La Ferrari. Or is it just La Ferrari....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuhbbAqkkmI

Thanks for sharing this link.
We just don't know what will F1 look like and for how long if Ferrari was to stop participation. In my view, there would be a fall off in TV viewership, with it snowballing effect sponsors wanting to pay less and less. Somewhere in there race promoters would start having trouble selling tickets, which would be the beginning of F1 as we know it shutting down.
Let's hope this will not happen.

The LaFerrari project doesn't overturn my argument. It takes OEM volume (units sold) to generate profit for the suppliers/partners to agree in exclusivity of cooperation and investment of own technical resources to support customer's F1 R&D effort. LaFerrari is extremely small volume with hardly any profit potential to suppliers. On top of that in view of fuel efficiency criteria, the effort of energy optimization in Prius to be of significantly higher level than in LaFerrari in spite of HP difference.

Current F1 requires Prius like engineering sophistication and Ferrari lacks own hybrid prowess, while outside help at the highest level may be unattainable for them in short term. The hybrid technology in general is on a steep learning curve. Each year, sizable gains will be made by all OEM participants.

For several months on this forum there were debates about ICE efficiency. Many numbers were quoted - 32%, 35%, 40% or more. Well whooopeeeee, who cares, the advanced ICE technology is within reach for all players. No one however is realizing that the same % game exists in MGU-K and MGU-H efficiency, the electronics that do the AC/DC/AC conversion and the whole deal of battery management. Percentage gains in this area are not mentioned by anyone, while in my view they are the NEW FRONTIER.

If Mercedes will sell 100k units of their C and E class autos, will they be taken seriously by Siemens or ABB or whoever is their technical partner? How many units will Chrysler-Fiat sell including LaFerrari?

[Tommy Cookers]

....... No one however is realizing that the same % game exists in MGU-K and MGU-H efficiency, the electronics that do the AC/DC/AC conversion and the whole deal of battery management. Percentage gains in this area are not mentioned by anyone, while in my view they are the NEW FRONTIER.

these efficiencies are in the high 90s (except that battery storage/recovery at these high rates is in the low 90s)
so further gains would be insignificant either in F1 or on the road
compared with improving the prime mover efficiency eg from 35 to 37% or 40% or whatever
whether the prime mover is behind an F1 driver or behind the walls of a (Carbon-capturing) power plant

[321apex]

....... No one however is realizing that the same % game exists in MGU-K and MGU-H efficiency, the electronics that do the AC/DC/AC conversion and the whole deal of battery management. Percentage gains in this area are not mentioned by anyone, while in my view they are the NEW FRONTIER.

these efficiencies are in the high 90s (except that battery storage/recovery at these high rates is in the low 90s)
so further gains would be insignificant either in F1 or on the road
compared with improving the prime mover efficiency eg from 35 to 37% or 40% or whatever
whether the prime mover is behind an F1 driver or behind the walls of a (Carbon-capturing) power plant

What about efficiencies at "challenging" levels of packaging and limited cooling?
What about efficiencies at 200 deg C?

You are speaking of universally known wikipedia level basic theories, while I am asking about "cutting edge" efficiencies and functionalities, currently being developed at the highest tech level required in F1. While we're waiting on China GP to play out, Siemens or ABB may be spending 20 million USD working on 2015 level MGU-K hardware having half the weight and needing half the cooling.

[chip engineer]

What about efficiencies at "challenging" levels of packaging and limited cooling?
What about efficiencies at 200 deg C?

You are speaking of universally known wikipedia level basic theories, while I am asking about "cutting edge" efficiencies and functionalities, currently being developed at the highest tech level required in F1. While we're waiting on China GP to play out, Siemens or ABB may be spending 20 million USD working on 2015 level MGU-K hardware having half the weight and needing half the cooling.

Good point. Improving an electrical efficiency from 92% to 96% will reduce cooling needed by a factor of 2.
This kind of competition is attractive to manufacturers like Honda and not so much to Ferrari for the reasons you state.

[Tommy Cookers]

no doubt all sorts of established technologies will be given spurious F1 gloss (like the bogus Teflon/space relationship)
we have had inversion in the MegaWatt range at 99.5% efficiency for over 30 years, similarly with motors and generators
the market needs a breakthrough in battery life, but people have stopped even talking about breakthroughs being in sight

do we know what type(s) of electrical machine (the mgs) are being used in F1 ? .... anybody ??
EV/hybrid makers are now minimising or eliminating magnets in their EMs to avoid the rare earth magnet supply stranglehold
in line with this F1 EMs will presumably be lower performers (and slightly less efficient) than otherwise possible

Formula 1 is not Formula E, F1 is a loosely speaking a 'fuel efficiency' formula
efficiency improves when power is moved (by backpressure) from the crankshaft to the compounding system we call the mgu-h
increasing the total power from the fuel quantity permitted
as the exhaust energy pre-blowdown is equivalent to the whole crankshaft power the turbine and its operation are dominant factors
capturing even 1% more exhaust energy will win races (even if the processing after capture is 'only' 98% efficient or whatever)
ask Mercedes
turbine dominance will increase when/if the permitted fuel quantity is reduced (assuming the mgu-k power limit is unchanged)
also of course the electric system characteristic gives large benefits to car control (again independent of the detail of efficiencies)

[321apex]

Formula 1 is not Formula E, F1 is a loosely speaking a 'fuel efficiency' formula
efficiency improves when power is moved (by backpressure) from the crankshaft to the compounding system we call the mgu-h
increasing the total power from the fuel quantity permitted
as the exhaust energy pre-blowdown is equivalent to the whole crankshaft power the turbine and its operation are dominant factors
capturing even 1% more exhaust energy will win races (even if the processing after capture is 'only' 98% efficient or whatever)
ask Mercedes
turbine dominance will increase when/if the permitted fuel quantity is reduced (assuming the mgu-k power limit is unchanged)
also of course the electric system characteristic gives large benefits to car control (again independent of the detail of efficiencies)

I don't think that capturing another 1% or 3% is going to make much difference. What matters is not how much more you capture but how you use what was captured. When we agree, that out of 2000kW of braking power potential we can easily get our 120kW to use 2MJ for one lap, we no longer care that much whether we harness every last additional Watt thru MGU-H.

Why?
Simply because, the vehicle is traction limited and overcoming this limitation is where any potential gains are. As I mentioned earlier, the game is about the QUALITY of power to be put down by the wheels. If you manage to have higher speed at 50m mark past the apex of a corner, then you will carry that much higher speed the whole distance down some long straight.

You may store all you want at the highest reclaiming efficiency, but with limited traction you will destroy the tires or not be used at all.

Consequently, the key is effective control of rear wheels during braking and during traction limited power application. Approaching as close to TC and ABS w/o contravening the rules or...... getting caught.

[ppj13]

I still struggle to understand some points of view, but I mostly agree with Tommy Cookers, turbine efficiency is the key.

I don't think all teams (probably none) have reached the "nirvana" of harvesting all the energy they can use (120kw for all the full throttle time plus some part throttle time to save fuel).

Harvesting takes place in the MGUH at full throttle, and we can assume 60Kw if they use known technology. The rest should be harvested during braking, but there is a physical limit to that, because there is only such braking time and such MGUK power. To harvest what you use with these figures, one would need a braking time at least half the full throttle time. I'm afraid this is not available, not in dry at least.

So teams will have to cut electric power to the MGUK, which is consistent to what Pedro de la Rosa said about the ferrari. In that case, increasing 1% the turbine efficiency from 30 to 31% will provide 4.5kw more during the complete full throttle time. I think it's pretty big a difference. Power is not limited by traction at full throttle. Otherwise... well it wouldn't be full throttle. And anyone can see they go full throttle for most part of the lap.

And why should they settle for "regular" turbo efficiency? They have an electric engine to avoid lag, so they can use very large size to avoid the various physical limits that cuts efficiency. I am totally ignorant about turbines, but I can imagine huge difference in harvested energy from team to team.

Any form of traction control is also a huge difference, I know very well. Perhaps both turbine efficiency and "controlling" traction are giving mercedes the edge.

[langwadt]

Corollary to my Ferrari statement, I will offer you this imponderability.

If what I said is close to being correct, then Ferrari will find it hard to succeed in hybrid F1.
If Ferrari can not win, they may/will cease to participate.
If Ferrari stops racing in F1 what will happen to F1 without them ?

If you are on the same page as I am, then the only way out is for F1 to somewhat "back track" on technology.

F1 can live without Ferrari, and Ferrari can do without F1. The whole symbiosis thing is taken way overboard in my view.
As for the tech, they already have some recovery systems on their production cars. Developed by the F1 guys at Gestione Sportiva according to Top Gear for the La Ferrari. Or is it just La Ferrari....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuhbbAqkkmI

but the La Ferrari hybrid system isn't developed to make the most of a rigid defined set of rules. Maybe it is a great system, maybe it is not, until someone build something to exact same specs there really isn't anything to directly compare
it to

[ringo]

Calculated theoretical power from MGUH excluding efficiencies of electrical components and motor.



ignore the rough spot as the fuel flow changes at 10,500rpm.

This is for a PU with 611 bhp.

[Kiril Varbanov]

I have been very curious about the total torques available from the new PUs. The unofficial response I've got from Mercedes was "lot more than 450 Nm at low revs, but close to your ballpark guestimate of 500 Nm at high RPMs."

Today I see numbers cited: 610Nm @ 5,000rpm and around 530Nm @ 10,500rpm (ICE + MGU-K).